Todd Bentley and John Crowder
10 Jun 2008
I’ve had several people in my church community and many more outside it, ask me what I make of Todd Bentley in Florida (and mixed in there is often the name John Crowder).
These questions, from good people in my church, and other friends, are enough for me to take it seriously and offer some responses.
By way of method, I’m not going to deal with them directly. I don’t want to offer an assessment or critique of Todd Bentley and/or John Crowder. Instead what I want to offer is how I plan on navigating this movement, and the next one that comes along.
Being in the association of vineyard churches for 20 years, means I have seen several movements like this come and go and many are connected to these current ones.
So what follows below is more, what I have learned from some of those experiences. They are in no particular order, just as they occur to me.
1. The Body of Christ is Broad: I can enjoy something of God in many different kinds of churches, but I wouldn’t want to make my church home there, nor do I have to.
2. Values: There are values within my church, and denomination of not hyping, not manipulating, not pumping people up. If God does something great, if not we don’t whip people up into a frenzy.
3. Theology: There’s a whole load of theological values here too for me.
The Spirit is not about getting me the consumer dream, or making me feel good. Ecstatic events and tradition as vital as they are, are not self-authenticating (to paraphrase Oliver O’Donovan).
The Holy Spirit works in the New Testament through ecstatic spontaneity and the establishing of traditions. We should be like early church and be sceptical of both! A good charismatic is a skeptical charismatic, a god traditionalist is a skeptical one. A good emerging church is…you get the idea.
4. Authority: It’s not enough to say people are being blessed, therefore this is God. People feeling good, happy, excited, blessed does not self authentic something either.
The only authority of a person, church, or movement, is the authority they point to, Jesus. Which is why when a person and tradition or new movement gets beyond reach of questioning, they have been dishonored, and so have we, and God.
A sign of real authority is our willingness to critique as we engage, and for those most involved to be open to critique too.
5. Involvement: A close friend of mine was told about a meeting related to Todd Bentley that was happing locally, and the invite to him to attend was put this way. “This is God, don’t you want to go and have Jesus involved in your life and your churches?’
Now I have been here myself, been so caught up in what God was doing with me and others, that I couldn’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to be part of of it too.
I was wrong. The body of Christ is bigger than any one person, church or movemement, and there is no obligation like that on everyone to join in.
6. Openness: Yet when something like this, or whatever comes along next comes along, I need to pause and pray, and be open, and ask Jesus if he has something for me that I need to enter into and engage with.
7. Blessing: And as I write this, I realise I want blessing, an experience of the Spirit for me, and my church, that makes our faith dynamic, and immanent and mission enabling.
8. Flying around the world: I don’t have to travel half way around the world to get that. Yet I must not be arrogant and dismissive, because there are many other things like an emergent event, or research conference that I will fly half way around the world for.
‘Locational event snobbery’ does not become more or anyone.
Conclusion
That’s my navigational framework, and my thoughts at first blush. What navigational aids would you offer?
Tagged: John Crowder, Todd Bentley
70 comments
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Pingback by Pentecost and the Way of the Shaman « zoecarnate
3.03 pm on 10 Jun 2008
[...] Jason Clark, a Vineyard pastor and Emergent Village guy in the UK, has just weighed in with astute thoughts on revival, Todd Bentley and John [...]
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Comment by caroline sakala
2.45 pm on 27 Jul 2008
Hi there- bro! by the way( icej) stands for Inny, Caz,Ethan and Joushua. We were invited to a bbq and as it happens we met an old friend-we hadn’t seen him for donkies years. He asked us a question- i was a little puzzled because wasn’t sure what to make of his question i was trying to figure out if the question was a question or a statement- he said” there is a revival going on in Florida, what is your church doing about this?
I thought let the bush grow will see. I agree with you in connection to- not hyping, not manipulating, not pumping people up. If God does something great. Its not right to whip people up into a frenzy.
May be the questions to ask are. Are people becoming more like Christ? Are they falling in love with Jesus and his Church? And the friuts…Gal 5.22 and More of Jesus less of man as in Gal 2.20
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Comment by taran ash
1.23 pm on 21 Mar 2009
If you get this Caroline and Inny, be great to get in contact again, Taran and Kim
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Comment by brett jordan
3.56 pm on 10 Jun 2008
Acts 5:38-39?
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Comment by Jason
4.18 pm on 10 Jun 2008
38Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
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Comment by marc
4.21 pm on 10 Jun 2008
I’ll try again…my last post was dissapeared.
How do we navigate this sort of thing…?
For me some sort of map is always a good starter, so I will spend some time looking at the person in question, reading abourt them, watching them on you tube and see what they say.
And this is what I have done with todd, plotted a path around this revival and stopped at a few harbours to take note of what is going on…is there a connection…we todd was preaaeching about seeing a 14ft angel at the toronto blessing.
I dont see angel or heal people…I wonder why?
I am skeptical of shouting american pastors, in fact anyone shouting at people about Jesus…I always have been, they seem to peak very loudly and then go quiet again…its a bit of crowd control:)
As jason says it is easy to get so wrapped up with this our compass can only point one way, the way we want it to…
So I take a step back and try to piece together what is going on in california.
In this instance…violent healing, kicking someone in the face accoding to todd!! and a personal appearance from Jesus…
That does not bode well as I take a heavy sigh.
I have to have a long question and answer sessions with myself and with God.
If this is a revival why is the focus healing?
If this is a revival where are all the thousands accepting Jesus?
If this is a revival…etc, etc.
then the maybes come out…
Maybe their is a revival?
Maybe it’s all made up?
Maybe people are desperate?
Maybe we are being made fools of?
and then I sit on my own island quite glad to be away from anotehr ‘revival’.
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Comment by brett jordan
4.21 pm on 10 Jun 2008
Ah Jason, how you spoil your blog-readers!
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Comment by Jason
7.53 am on 11 Jun 2008
:-)
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Comment by alistair mackinnon
10.18 pm on 6 Jul 2008
What???
What do these comments mean?
I suggest you all no longer watch television
alistair
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Comment by Matt Wiebe
4.47 pm on 10 Jun 2008
Good rubric here Jason. I’d say that another one is fruit, particularly the fruit of the spirit. Are people growing in love for others, or are they simply being more caught up in their own experience? Does this impel them into the Missio Dei of seeking the lost, broken and hurting, or does it begin to resemble a junkie seeking their next fix?
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Comment by Jason
7.54 am on 11 Jun 2008
Hi Matt, fruit is a good one, and takes time as well.
>Does this impel them into the Missio Dei of seeking the lost, broken and hurting, or does it begin to resemble a junkie seeking their next fix
A great question…time will tell.
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Comment by Jason Reid
10.44 pm on 10 Jun 2008
Isn’t it funny suddenly we’re in my comfort zone and I’m not comfotable. Can I recommend this response fron Terry Virgo, too reformed for some tastes, but actually spot on in terms of pitch:
http://adrianwarnock.com/2008/06/audio-terry-speaks-about-todd-bentley.htm
I agree with Matt, like Toronto years ago, we should consider fruit not our opinions.
ciao
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Comment by Jason
7.56 am on 11 Jun 2008
HI Jason. Don’t need discernment and fruit? Just pondering.
If we wait for fruit we can miss out on that in our lives, what enables us to participate in something before it has born fruit??
Jase
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Comment by Paul
8.24 am on 11 Jun 2008
fruit ripens; sometimes that ripening season is minutes, other times I am finding it is taking a lifetime…
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Comment by Jason Reid
9.31 am on 11 Jun 2008
Jase
You are right, at the end of the day people are getting healed and blessed which is great amazing news. And if we feel stirred about this it could be the Holy Spirit saying there’s a blessing here for you. I get nervous about the fleshy aspects and the long term fall out from all of this.
If God is healing people long may it continue!
Jason
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Comment by Robert Ricciardelli
1.23 pm on 16 Jul 2008
Truth is there are very few people being healed in LAkeland. I have worked with Charisma Magazine editor Lee Grady in discovering how many flase reports have been released as facts. These are our brtohers and sister invovled in this, but this move of God has been a move of men with God still touching some who come to seek Him…
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Comment by Paul
8.21 am on 11 Jun 2008
Thanks Jason, v helpful.
some of my own framework:
Where is Jesus in my reaction?it can easily offend me that Jesus is not where I want him to be, doing what I him to be doing. God would never use them, or do that etc is often just my pride being offended. Where is Jesus in me in my reaction?
Whole body faith – when i find myself getting over analytical and critical that can be just as sign of me retreating into my God shaped box. When i get all about emotional, exstatic that can start getting be hooked on the experience. The challenge for me is how to use my mind and open my heart up – if i’m just approaching this from one part of me maybe it’s not healthy.
God woz here I don’t want to set up shrines to “God woz here” – in my life i have had some amazing, life changing, dramatic encounters with the Holy Spirit – i’m tempted to try and stay in that place and repeat the formula but I also feel that God wants me to sufficiently changed by the encounter to lead me through the mundane as well. Where is God? What/where is he leading me to next? How am I doing that in community with others?
Pilgrimage i don’t want to be a spiritual tourist chasing around the globe (or even local churches)from one spiritual high to the other – then again do i want to be committed to life of service in a community, finding not only the “experience” of God in intellectual and emotional tremors but in finding God in serving and loving others? in the mundane?
But sometimes a pilgrimage to a place of God is good – a chance to leave my comfort zone? a journey there and back again – to seek God but then return to bless and serve others?
God fruit ripens on God time when i look back on my own experiences of dynamic supernatural experience i can honestly say that the fruit of those experiences has taken a long time to ripen. I want immediate change, an all or nothing God. Either the person i am praying for is out of their wheel chair and running down the aisle or there is sin in their life and God just can’t work etc… I want God to work to my timescales when often God uses something big as simply getting a foot in the door. The stone that is hitting the pond not all the ripples that will run across my entire life as a result…
we’re all mixed up people my final guidepost is to remind myself of the helpful response that John Wimber gave on the Toronto blessing.
When asked: “John is this a work of God, the flesh, or the devil?”
He replied: “yes”
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Comment by brett jordan
9.40 am on 11 Jun 2008
one thing that continues to bug me about the healing stuff… I hear so many stories of dramatic healings and yet, to my knowledge, medical data has never been collected to prove that these are authentic, lasting healings
i believe in a God that heals, but it would be comforting to me if there was some kind of credible literature that documented ‘before-and-after’ cases of people being cured
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Comment by Jason
9.46 am on 11 Jun 2008
I’m with you on that Brett, it’s not enough to claim healing, they need to be publicly evidenced.
A raising from the dead on you tube, rather than talk about it perhaps?
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Comment by jason while
12.15 pm on 11 Jun 2008
interesting blog jase! had a good read, of the comments too. also checked out the chat from terry virgo, very good i thought. still can’t quite get my head around it all to be honest. part of me wants to get on a jet (IF i had the cash) fly out n c whats what. BUT theres always a little nagging doubt that somethg isnt quite right somehow. And everyday i find more reasons to go and more to doubt/feel somewhat uneasy. i probably just need to stop thinkin abt it n get on with jus ‘doin the stuff’.
take it easy… jason whiley (pastor west wilts vyd)
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Comment by Laura Anne
10.09 pm on 11 Jun 2008
Interesting post Jason
I’m a proper cynical girl when it comes to stuff like this. I am excitable, but I’m not one to go along with something just because everyone else is.
The Todd Bentley folks have recently been in Scotland (West Lothian to be exact). And I was impressed to hear that they were really good in that they didn’t shout, didn’t hype things up. They were just themselves, and encouraged folks that God can work anywhere. There were a lot of really miraculous healings – people being able to see and hear, someone being healed so they could walk again.
However, do find it a bit bizarre that Christians are now flocking to Florida. Surely we are to make ourselves available to where God has placed us, and what He wants to do in our locality?
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Comment by Paul
1.04 pm on 12 Jun 2008
I’ve flocked to florida before – but then that was to disneyland :)
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Comment by Jason Reid
5.47 pm on 12 Jun 2008
I flocked, but always for work, and I forever end up on submarines and rarely get to enjoy the sunshine. :)
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Comment by Laura Anne
12.20 am on 14 Jun 2008
Disneyworld is why I went to Florida too for the ‘trip of lifetime’ family holiday.
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Pingback by Lakeland Florida, and Todd Bentley…. « Ranges Community Church
1.43 pm on 12 Jun 2008
[...] Lakeland Florida, and Todd Bentley…. Revival in Lakeland Florida has been gaining traction the last couple of months. On the blogosphere as well as a few pastors and friends I know. So far I really appreciate Jason Clark’s spin on things coming from a Vineyard perspective… [...]
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Comment by Robin Wiseman
3.15 pm on 14 Jun 2008
I’m leaning towards Acts 5v38,39 on this. As much as it jars me culturally (I’m from the N.E. of Scotland), at what I see on Sky T.V. I’m big enough to acknowledge the tremendous tapestry of tribes and tongues within the body of Christ. Do I need to go out to Florida to encounter God? No more than I need the latest book, see the latest blockbuster or to go buy another suit, but you know sometimes I just do it anyway. So if you want to jump on the next flight out there to experience the next big thing, hey, who am I to judge?
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Comment by margaret
10.29 am on 15 Jun 2008
I think the wimber quote is spot on! I went to toronto becasue a friend was going and someone offered to pay for me to have a holiday(!) and there was lots that was bizarre (to say the least)but I enjoyed being in the presence of God in a way that I hadn’t experienced before and when I came back my church leaders wanted to go too…….. but….two of them got gold teeth the next year and I was so angry and (if I’m honest) embarrased. I don’t want a god who gives gold teeth to rich westerners and I certainyl didn’t want gold teeth in the church of england!
most of the todd bentley stuff horrifies me but…..and yet…..and I could have drawn up ahead a list of those here who want to go to dudley or florida and meanwhile we take our eye off the mission god has called us to in our specific places. clearing rubbish off a sink estate isn’t sexy like going to florida…. I’ll stop becasue I’m rambling
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Comment by Adrian Roberts
1.14 am on 16 Jun 2008
The paragraphs below are extracted from what I posted on the “Evangelicalism, Fundamentalism and the Emerging Church” thread. They express my thoughts and reservations about the Lakeland issue. In the end, as has been written above, we will need to see the fruit before making a judgement.
I don’t want to write off Todd Bentley and Lakeland; I don’t want to be one of the foolish virgins if it really is the next big thing that God is doing (bit late for the virgin bit, but not for being foolish :-) ) He has been criticised for not preaching the gospel- but Jesus didn’t “preach the gospel” as evangelicals understand it; he did miracles. But even laying aside anti-American prejudice, there is a lot about it that is highly subjective.
And the “Latter Rain” connection is highly suspect. I’ve heard Todd mention William Branham approvingly, the original Latter Rain prophet. That man not only did not believe in the Trinity, he believed he was the prophet Elijah, he believed that the women should have no public ministry, and he made pronouncements that opened him to charges of sympathy with white supremacism. Both he and Paul Kane talked of seeing visions of angels from an early age. Personally I suspect this can be explained as schizophrenia as much as by religious mysticism.
Adrian
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Comment by Romans126
5.00 am on 19 Jun 2008
“Jesus didn’t preach the Gospel the way Evangelicals understand it?”
When I read the New Testament I find Jesus had a lot to say. Yes He preached and people were amazed at His authority, His understanding of the Scriptures. They marvelled at how a ‘mere carpenter’ could know so much. Jesus managed to preach the full truth often with the minimum amount of words. Just think on how he could so focus on the real underlying issue and speak the truth into the situation. The woman at the well comes to mind.
Then there are all the parables he used to convey the truth of who He is and of God’s real Kingdom. The sermons on the mount etc etc. Real God miracles follow the preaching of the word.
How often does Todd teach out of the Bible as compared to sharing his latest vision, teleportation or latest Angel message? Is there an in-balance here? When he does teach from the Bible how acurate is he? Does he take scripture out of context? Does his teaching stay within the bounds of Scripture or does he add his own revelations to it?
When it comes to fruit – let me say miracles are not the fruit of the Spirit. Fruit is to do with character, who you are and also when speaking of those who teach others/preach etc their fruit is also seen in just what they teach.
Todd has been writing stuff about what He believes long before this latest TV event. You can go back and find out just what he thinks on Sundar Singh for example and what his Angeology/theology is. This can be already weighed by the ’scales of scripture’. Have you done a good Bible Study of just what Todd really believes in? However you may have to be quick as I have just been told by a friend that links are disappearing fast to some of his stuff. Seems like some of Todd’s teachings are being removed. However all is not lost as many have hard copies and some have put the full deal onto their own sites. I also think there maybe a publication or two of Todd’s out in the land of paper and Ink.
Remember in Matthew 7 we find that the casting out of demons, the healing, the miracles etc that were done by some in the Lord’s name where not actually all His people. This scripture alone should warn us that we are not to make a call on the evidence of signs. There are many other scriptures that back this up as well.
We should all be good Bereans and search the full counsel of the scriptures to make sure that we test the spirits accordingly. You don’t have to wait for the fruit of the miracles when you can clearly already see Todd’s fruit of his beliefs freely stated by himself.
Also if we were to weigh up the fruit of some event by the number of actual documented healings, salvations etc how could we know if a real healing was lost because a person stopped following God or lost faith? Some people do see a work of God and start to follow him but like the parable of the seeds sown in different types of ground some don’t grow because they are on stony ground, or the cares of this world choke out the word of God.
To be fair then to any minister who has had miracles happen in thier ministering we cannot judge the ministers fruit on the walk of others alone. We need to view that ministers life, his character, his teaching and preaching. For out of the abundance of the heart we speak. eg. If we advocate violent type behaivour with our mouth then there lies within a violent nature. Or if we advocate chaos, then there is a lack of order in our nature. I am sure you get the point.
Here is a good link from one Pastor who was involved in the ’second wave’ in Toronto. He speaks of fruit from that and gives us another first hand view of similar things. I note his use of bitter fruit and it made me think about how often I have brought nice looking fruit at the store only to get it home and discover that it is bitter and not as sweet as it appeared to be.
The Toronto Deception by a former Toronto Vineyard Pastor
http://www.discernmentministries.org/TheTorontoDeception.htm) “It has taken me nine years to actually come to the place where I would write this story”
By declaring that all things must line up with scripture is not the same as putting “God in our box”. We did not invent Scripture, it was not our revelation but God’s. God clearly has given us boundaries to operate in. To go beyond God’s boundaries is a sign of disobedience – in other words Sin. You are not traditional just because you hold a ‘high view’ of the word of God, nor are you ‘out of touch with the Spirit’ The Bible was given for good reason and it alone stands as the judge of fruit until the Judge comes in person, in the clouds when every eye shall see and everyone know that Jesus is the King.
I think you should all be commended though for giving much thought to this. By making discussion you are exercising discernment.
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Comment by Denise Lim
11.34 am on 24 Jul 2008
Who is Paul Kane?
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Comment by James Prescott
8.57 pm on 17 Jun 2008
There is a lot to digest from this guy. Its easy to get sucked in by the showmanship and the charisma of this guy, and the power of what he does.
The point is not what he’s doing. But what message is he using to justify it. What does he beleive? How much glory is going to Jesus? What’s the objective of what he does? Where’s the follow up and support for those who are saved? Is it all about healing, or is there some real substance behind it?
Healing and big displays of spiritual power are one thing, but the substance behind it is more important.
There were lots of healers at the time of Jesus – but only one with the real message.
We also need to remember that sometime God blesses us and helps us grow more in the times when he seems distant than when he’s doing all the miracles.
Its great that big movements of the spirit are happening, but we need to see where God is, what He’s doing with this and what of Him we can see in this, and remember that our faith isn’t dependent on what God does for us now, but on the truth of what Jesus has already done, and the God behind it all.
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Comment by pat holliday
6.43 am on 19 Jun 2008
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:19 PM, pat holliday wrote:
Hello Dear Ones;
This one’s real Shocker. If I were you, I’d stay away from these demonic meetings and I’d certainly protect the children.You might get an “impartation” of something that’s hard to get rid of. Cover yourself with the blood of Jesus and pray before reading the article.
Yes, I do encourage you to forward these articles. How will they know unless a preacher is sent?
You’ll find new article here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3482527/Todd-Bentley-John-Crowder-AFTERGLOW-Summer-Solstice-Witchcraft-wizards-
Blessings and do be in prayer from me, family and team. We are all covered by the blood of Jesus and the Fire of the Holy Ghost.
Todd Bentley & John crowder HIGH ON JESUS? Star gate openers and STARWALKERS TO THIRD HEAVENs~ Secrets of the ascended masters ~angels of destruction, TOWER TO HEAVEN, LADDER TO GOD, STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN ~ and cocaine jesus
http://www.patholliday.com/ebooks.php
AFTERGLOW getting high on Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkBLnmdJ2SY
Summer Solstice Witchcraft wizards
~soul snatchers & soul scalpers Bentley and Chowder want disconnect you from the Jesus of the Bible and link you to the Awakened Beings they are calling angels who they say are from the divine realm existing in the Third Heaven. They want to take you through an occultist wormhole, the sorceries, long sought “Stargate of the gods.” Their witchcraft experiences want to teach you about the powerful new “electrical energies” bathing your spirits with the anointing of the Ascended Masters powers of the New Age.
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Comment by Anonymous
10.28 am on 19 Jun 2008
I thought this was an excellent post, period. The principles you state can be applied to anything, not just the current events in Florida. But everything I’ve seen, heard, and read concerning Todd Bentley (and I’ve spent a lot of time looking into him) indicates that he overwhelmingly fails to meet the criteria given under Values, Theology, and Authority. Consequently, my conclusion is that he should be avoided at all costs.
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Comment by Romans126
1.13 pm on 19 Jun 2008
I have some questions in my mind over this whole debate about Todd. Those that support him frequently tell us off for questioning it all. I often see the statement “touch not God’s annointed” and don’t criticise a move of God that does not fit your theological box! But I am wondering just who decided and when they decided that Todd is God’s annointed one? Why are we made to be on the defensive, why are the ones who want to hold this up to the light of the Word being made to have to prove our postition.
Who decided that Todd’s teaching was Biblical in the first place? What are the credentials of those who gave this thing licence to begin with? What and where is their fruit?
I have yet to see a good Biblical backing for this whole movement. Where is the theology of the leaders who give Todd their blessing. Apart from appealing to the signs I see no evidence that this is a move of God.
In the past where there has been real revival, with real repentance and biblical teaching you did not see the leaders of such making statements that “they are bringing/causing a revial”
Rather these men and women were humble and made no such claims for themselves. Think on Luther and Reece Howels from the Welsh revial. They made no big claims and had no tickets on themselves. Luther did not set out to make a new church, he only wanted to originally address the wrong teachings on the Church he was in.
Reece Howles was known to leave congregations when they wanted to make something of him. He would not take God’s glory for himself. Reece spent more time in his prayer closet than he did up front.
I don’t see this knid of character present today.
What about Keith Green? He was known to quietly slip under his piano when God was moving because he didn’t want people to focus on him, rather they focus on God. Do we see this here?
Then there is the question of societal change. The Welsh revival was a real revival because the church repented of her luke warm ways with real tears and then people were saved and their lives radically changed. The proof was in the way the society around changed. Crime went down, jails emptied out. Order was restored and the pubs clientel diminished. There was a real community effect with real love being shown.
Is this evident here? Was it evident after the Rodney Howard Brown Torronto first and second wave? According to one Pastor who was involved no.
Also from past revivals there was a flood of people raised up for mission work. The numbers of missionaries raised up and sent out for the great commission was noted. Do we see this here? Rather it seems the reverse is occuring where people are rushing from their current church to go to this event in order to recreate it back in their own church, completely missing the mission field on the way. A party for the already churched perhaps?
Jesus did his ministry out in the streets more than he did it in the church. He did do some in the temple and synagogues but mostly it was out in the mission field. Actually the ministry in the temple that he sometimes did was to clear out the traders, which was not well recieved.
We must not be quick to claim some movement is of God unless it first passes the test of Scripture. To make bold statements about it being revival and this being God’s man without proper discernment only makes the church look childish, lacking judgement and not much different from the world at all. No wonder the world finds us hard to take seriously.
Finally one last comment. What is wrong with the mentallity of the Christian Church that we should so despise or undervalue the work of God in our everyday ‘mundane’ life. For me the miracle of God’s presence in the small and trival parts of my life speak louder and for more often than such specticles. Are Christians so bored with everyday life that they have to go chasing the ‘latest’ happening. Brothers and sisters we already have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms (Eph chapter 1) we have already been given the gift of salvation. We already have forgiveness, the fruit and gifts of the Spirit. Why do we need a ‘new impartation’. Have we grown cold in our first Love? Revelations chapter 2 sees a church that has grown cold and forgotten our first love.
Put you eyes on Jesus alone, you will find Him clearly revealed in God’s word. You don’t need anything new you just need to appreciate the immense gift you have already recieved.
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Comment by James Prescott
8.09 pm on 19 Jun 2008
Good post Romans126.
I watched it last night and as I did I thought to myself that while God can heal and its amazing, and we should have faith for that and celebrate when God heals, that its not the whole deal.
There has to be substance to it, there has to be follow up, there has to be a real lasting impact on the lives of the people involved and the community around it. The fruits of the spirit need to be seen in action. Justice, mercy, peace and lifestyles changed, not just physical healing. Jesus came to show us how to live and to put God at the centre of all our choices, to re-define our culture to God’s values. To let our lives show people who Jesus is.
Mircales are great but they are nothing without substance. These things are media-friendly and play on people in real need, it can sometimes appear manipulative and more of a consumer Christianity than what Jesus talked about.
I’m not saying this isn’t Jesus, but that we need to be careful not to get sucked in by the power of this and remember the heart of the gospel, the substance of what we beleive, what faith is all about. Jesus didn’t perform mircacles all the time – only as signs of His love and compassion, and to show God’s glory and demonstrate His message.
Jesus miracles had a purpose. They were to demonstrate the love and comparssion of God and to illustrate a point about what God is about and about how to live.
It wasn’t an end in itself, which is what seems to be the case with these guys.
If God is working then we should rejoice, worship and celebrate, of course we should. But we musn’t forget what the Christian message and life is all about, and what is most important.
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Comment by Joe Bednarsky
7.28 am on 21 Jun 2008
On June 27, 2008 at 8pm EST Live, we will be interviewing Doug Perry of The Fellowship of the Martyrs – http://www.fellowshipofthemartyrs.com in regards to him speaking out about Todd Bentley of Fresh Fire Ministries. Some of the questions we will be asking is Who is Todd Bentley and why is Doug and others speaking out about him? If you’re a Christian you don’t want to miss this eye opening show, so feel free to call in with your questions and comments about Todd Bentley.
Bednarsky Talk Radio
Hosted by: Joseph V. Bednarsky Jr.
Phone Number: (724) 444-7444
Call ID: 10285
For more info and updates visit http://www.joebednarsky.com
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Pingback by links for 2008-06-24 « earth is my favourite planet
1.34 pm on 24 Jun 2008
[...] Todd Bentley and John Crowder at Jason Clark How I plan on navigating this movement, and the next one that comes along. Being in the association of vineyard churches for 20 years, means I have seen several movements like this come and go and many are connected to these current ones. (tags: church) [...]
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Comment by Joe Bednarsky
7.36 pm on 24 Jun 2008
06-23-08 Update: Due to the many emails I have received about Doug Perry and time I have spent in prayer, I am cancelling my interview with Doug Perry of the Fellowship of the Martrs on June 27, 2008 and I have nothing bad to say about Todd Bentley of Fresh Fire Ministries and would still like to personally interview him if we can setup a date and time to do so.
I have learned that it is not up to us to judge one another and where someone else is in their walk with God and that just because Todd Bentely has tattoo’s and is a biker does not make him a bad person. I know of many Christian bikers that have many tattoo’s and I am one, but this does not mean I am evil. I think more people need to worry about themselves and where they are in their walk with God before pointing fingers at others.
For more info and updates visit http://www.joebednarsky.com
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Pingback by My Todd Bentley assessment in Christianity Magazine at Jason Clark
10.47 am on 27 Jun 2008
[...] Todd Bentley and John CrowderUnion Jack MacJohn Drane @ Blah 10th May, LondonSublime Magazine: International Ethical Lifestyle MagazineJason Clark Vs Robert PutnamHope for the Emerging ChurchEmerging Church: Lacking the Spirit?Download Todd Hunter InterviewSalvo: Magazine RecommendationThe Hermeneutic of Community [...]
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Comment by cls
8.24 pm on 27 Jun 2008
Please see:http://www.adventuresinchristianity.com/?L=blogs.blog&article=3494
Justin’s web site is http://www.justinpeters.org and if you go to his site, watch “demo.”
He comes highly recommended by my pastor, Dr. John MacArthur.
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Comment by cls
8.27 pm on 27 Jun 2008
Justin Peters wrote on this, see: http://www.adventuresinchristianity.com/?L=blogs.blog&article=3494
His web site is http://www.justinpeters.org and if you check it out, please see: “demo.”
He spoke at my church last year and comes highly recommended by my pastor, Dr. John MacArthur.
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Pingback by The florida outpouring, and me… « this fragile tent
6.26 pm on 30 Jun 2008
[...] http://jasonclark.ws/2008/06/10/todd-bentley-and-john-crowder/ Blogged with the Flock Browser [...]
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Comment by pat holliday
4.38 am on 1 Jul 2008
TODD BENTLEY~ THE NEW BREED AND THE false ANOINTING~ JOEL’S ARMY
Jacksonville, Fl. June 24, 2008
Dear Saints
William Branham’s Jesus Only, Latter Rain, angel healing doctrines was rejected as heresy by all major established Pentecostal Churches. It has returned with many of the grandsons preachers receiving these unscriptural teachings because of miracles.
At the same time of Branham’s ministry there were many men blazing a trail across the nation preaching the healing message, that the Bible is God’s Word and He can back up His Word through Miracles. And many brought the message to the church and it was received. I BELIEVE IN MIRACLES TOO.
However, the Spirit and the word will always agree. There is a very powerful evil spirit of Kundalini moving through the church. “Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness”. 2 Thess. 2:9-12. KJV
Look at this film and weep for the Church. Is this coming to your Church?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwlRisYyGAI
I think you will agree that the above clip looks as though these people were in an insane asylum instead of a church. The sleeping church is totally unprepared for this unleashing of evil spirits and many souls will end up in hell because of the spiritual blindness of the leaders.
There is an evil working within the Christian that will destroy it unless men and women repent and ask the Lord Jesus to reveal His truth to the believers. THE WOLF IS IN THE SHEEP PEN.
It is the love of the truth and Jesus that will get you into His Kingdom. Jesus can and will do miracles but the sign that must be discerned in last days are those who have a sign and wonders ministry. We must test the spirits to see if they be of God. See this scripture.
Seek the truth through His Word and not the power of miracles.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3566516/Todd-Bentley-Dark-Night-of-the-Soul-Kundalini-Awakening-MYSTICAL-SEEKERS-
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Comment by Jason Reid
7.16 am on 1 Jul 2008
Hmmm
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Comment by Joe Bednarsky
7.36 pm on 5 Jul 2008
I shared this with our members the other day and thought I would share it here as it seems their are a lot of people that are judging Todd Bentley:(
Today’s Bible Verse, Thought & Prayer for 07-02-08
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Matthew 7:2/NIV
Thought…
Jesus is concerned that we not have a critical spirit toward others, especially about their motives as to why they did something. We can’t assume to know another person’s heart; only God can. When we are unfairly critical, overly harsh, or unduly judgmental, we need to remember that God will use that same standard on us. I don’t know about you, but I need grace. So do those I love. I’m going to try very hard to be as gracious toward others as I’m trusting that God is going to be gracious with me.
Prayer…
Forgive me, Abba Father, for the times that I’ve been far more critical of others than I should be. Arouse within me a passion to be gracious toward others so that they can see your graciousness shining through me. In Jesus’ name I pray. Amen.
Regards,
The Joseph V. Bednarsky Jr. Ministries Forum Team.
http://joebednarsky.com/forum/index.php
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Comment by Helen
11.36 pm on 5 Jul 2008
Joe, I don’t know if this counts as ‘judging’ – I found this video disturbing.
How can it be ok to kick someone with colon cancer in the stomach?
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Comment by Joe Bednarsky
12.14 am on 6 Jul 2008
What do you think of the Florida Outpouring revival in Lakeland Florida?
I hope anyone reading this will come and join my forum and add their input on this subject, all Biblical teachings are welcome.
http://joeebednarsky.com/forum/index.php?topic=212.0
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Comment by carol
3.58 pm on 6 Jul 2008
i have followed todd’s healing ministry almost since the beginning (12 yrs ago) via the net. i have been in his meetings here in so. calif. a dozen times, and everyone else who came here to redlands he knows. i would go to fl. in a second if i wasn’t an unemployed 61 yrold grandma who’s family (husband and 4 grown sons) didn’t disapprove. i am descended from joseph smith who started the mormons. my life has been hell. i am desperate. i found a home church with a couple who went to fl. and are going back fri, and their daughter is accepted to todd’s school (now in bc, canada). bitterness and jealousy always stops revival. stop.
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Comment by Jason Reid
10.43 pm on 6 Jul 2008
Carol
whats the best way we can pray for you? How would Jesus be most glorified in your life?
Enjot grace Jason R
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Comment by pat holliday
4.52 pm on 9 Jul 2008
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3871573/Todd-Bentley-Rick-JoinerThe-Cosmic-Tree-STAR-GATES-TO-THE-THIRD-HEAVEN-
A few preachers are beginning to get it. They are losing their sheep and tithes because they let the wolves into the pen. Lakeland is NOT a place to go out of curiosity. IT IS DANGEROUS – much soul snatching is going on there. A preacher called me said, I went over and took a group from my church. I was washing my hands and the Lord spoke to me and said, “Get out of here. This place is filled with wizards and witches. I left.
Pat, I’ve lost many people and they started giving their money to Todd Bentley. A preacher that I know in Tampa is going to lose his church, they’ve left and going to Todd’s. I see the danger and when I try to warn my fellow pastor friends, they get angry with me and break fellowship. This is the most heart retching thing that I have ever seen.”
Todd Bentley’s and GOD-TV- Wendy Alec’s gods “IT” and the god of “COME AND GET SOME,” are ravaging souls and sheep hustling are heading your way. Pastor, are you prepared for the great separation and falling away? Are you ready for lifetime friends that will no longer speak to you because they are spiritually gone? It’s already happening, they go into the star gate and what comes back is not their spirit. THEY ARE GONE — FOREVER!
Read this new report, weep for the church, fast and pray.
TO THE THIRD HEAVEN ~ Transformation~ “BAM-BAM” – (BhaMBhaM) – to sodomize NEW AGE TRANCE ~ ANTICHRIST LOOMS ~ THEY ARE GETTING YOU READY THEIR NEW RELIGIOUS LEADER, THE ANTICHRIST
TODD BENTLEY SAID AFTER HIS GREAT FRIENDSHIP RING INITIATION “Oh this is so global.”
COSMIC TREE
Looking For the Tree of Life – In search of the Return to Eden
Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: De 12:2
THE NEW BREED ~ Lakeland Outpouring Apostolic Team: Chuck Pierce, Dutch Sheets, Lee Grady, Steve Strang, Ché Ahn, Jeff Beacham, David Cannistraci, Joseph Askins, Bill Johnson, John Arnott, and many more are no longer in hiding. We can clearly see them and more are coming exposed every day. PRAY, PRAY, PRAY. . . When the sheep go to the other side, they don’t come back.
Expect to see big dying – empty churches around the world. . . Captured by the dead Jesus god of Todd Bentley, GOD-TV, THE NEW BREED and the demonic angels from the “The Third Heaven” star gates.
GOD-TV WENDY ALEC of godless-TV
And what’s even scarier is what Bentley’s endorser, Wendy Alec, co-founder of God-TV prophesied regarding this latest “outpouring” of the unholy spirit:
“THIS is just the warm up party – for what you shall see in the coming days shall even make these days pale – with what I have up my sleeve. And I tell you my son – that THIS THAT I POUR OUT UPON YOU UPON FLORIDA shall flow to the east.”
Does God have something up his sleeve? Of course not! These words emerged from the pit of hell where Emma rules.
Continue to pray… The devils cannot hide and our Lord Jesus Christ is more powerful, if we will pray, then He will hear from heaven and heal our land.
Blessings to you,
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Comment by James Prescott
5.03 pm on 9 Jul 2008
I’ve posted some thoughts about this in my blog as well.
I think what we need to do is pray that if this is God, that He really confirm that and that it goes on.
Then pray that if it isn’t, that God would expose it for what it is and it would end.
The most important thing in my opinion isn’t miracles or healing, its building the kingdom. If this is causing church to fall apart and good churches are closing down that isn’t a good thing.
Its not for us to judge whether it is or isn’t God.
All we can do is pray that God is in control, and trust Him to deal with it. Ultimately, Todd Bentley and co will have to account to God for their actions, whether from God or not. At least we can have that assurance.
We need to focus on building God’s kingdom and trying to live like Jesus. That’s the most important thing for me.
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Comment by Romans126
11.42 pm on 11 Jul 2008
James Prescott “It is not for us to judge whether it is or isn’t God. ”
I wonder where you get this idea from? The Bible clearly tells us to discern the spirits and to test everything (James comes to mind), I think the relevant scriptures have been shown in many posts about this topic. We are to make judgements about what is happening.
Remember the pharasees and people of Jesus’s time. There were many fence sitters who refused to judge if Jesus was the Son of God. They couldn’t be bothered checking out the facts pertaining to scripture so they just watched the ‘current happenings’. These people missed out on accepting him as Lord, as the son of God. These same people who just followed the crowd and watched the event, followed the same crowd to the crucifixtion and yelled ‘crucify him’.
We are given all the tools in the word of God – Bible to make just judgement over what is being taught by this Lakeland event. We are given also warnings to test and warnings about great deception in the last days. Not only once but many times. God has given us the tools but many are too scared to use them.
They show favourtism by bowing down to the so called ‘big names’ of ministry and accepting carte blanche what ‘published members say’ over the Word of God. Just because someone is ‘popular’ or if someone has a published book or BIG CHurch we accept what they say is showing favouritism and more so when a ‘little pastor’ with a small flock points out Biblical error we ignore him because in our minds we say ‘who is he’? They also show fear by bowing down to ‘political correctness’ and by conversely not showing enough ‘guts’ to stand on the word of God and to proclaim it to the situation.
Everyday we are to make judgements about what is going on around us “:s it of God or not”? Parents have to discern on a daily basis the content of kids programs “are they Godly or not” i.e. Is it from God or not. The lakeland happening the overall event, it’s teachings must be discerned and judged. If they don’t line up to the full counsel of God then they are not from Him. God is not a liar, he does not change and oil and water just don’t mix.
If we were to use this quote of yours in this situation we would then use it everywhere. Surely God’s people must learn how to judge what is of God, surely that is why we have the word of God and the Spirit. If we wont make judgements here about Lakeland then how will make judgements in local churches when false teachings creep in such as “Christian Yoga”, or modern day Gnosticism teachings???
If we judge then we are to judge how we would wish to be judged. I personally am happy to be judged on how I treat the word of God. What I teach from the Bible does reflect what I believe about God. IF I am in error then I am happy to have a loving brother or sister point out my error so that I may be refined and brought back to the centre of the truth. I don’t judge on outward appearances and so far not many on this blog are. We are basing judgement on the content of the Word of God in the Lakeland outpouring and we are smart enough to take on board Matt chapter 7 when doing so.
So yes we are to judge if it is of God or not. To fail to do so will cause us to become fence sitters, lukewarm and if we are happy to follow the crowd whilst politically correctly failing to exercise discernment we may end up following the crowd to an event equalling the crucifixtion of Christ.
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Comment by James Prescott
11.41 am on 14 Jul 2008
I think in hindsight, ‘judge’ is the wrong word. Judgement is for God alone. No-one else has the right to judge anyone else. That plays preciesly to society’s views of Christianity and Christians – hypocrytical, judgemental, anti-whatever you put.
I think we need to have an opinion on what it is and we need to test it against the Bible, of course.But final judgement is God’s alone. Yes we need to make a decision on whether we beleive its God or not, but that will be our interpretation, our opinion. Its not a question of “I’m right, that’s wrong and that’s that, no other intepretation allowed”
But ultimately only only one person outside Todd Bentley and his crew knows for sure.
I just dislike this “I’m right, you’re wrong becuase the Bible says this” attitude, becuase it appears to me to be very arrogant. People can always interpret the Bible in different ways. There are many meanings to scripture, I think there are many wrong ones – which contradict the heart of God and what He’s all about, but at the same time there are several correct ones. Its down to individual intepretation.
I believe God heals people. I believe the Holy Spirit is powerful and God can work in different ways. I also believe that following Jesus is more than just spectactular signs and following the latest trend. Jesus is about a way of life, a set of values and about putting God first.
I just think that there’s a danger we can focus too much on this and forget what following Jesus is all about. And its not primarily healing, in my opinion – although I beleive God can and does heal.
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Comment by margaret
9.09 pm on 14 Jul 2008
I do wonder whether it’s a bit of excitment. how cool is it (ironic tone here guys) to be able to jet to a revival. its maybe ‘the poor you have always with you’ syndrome so they’ll still be here when we get back…………
it’s quite hard to give yourself permission to bunk off church and learn snowboarding or something but going to lakeland is very ok.
maybe I’m just cynical?
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Comment by Michael Hullah
8.52 pm on 19 Jul 2008
Hey a Vineyard Pastor with Balance! Now I know God is doing a great work in the world. No seriously I am an experiental christian and in my later years have discovered that God is a God of Balance and everything He does is to restore us to His original plan He may do that in extreme ways but the fruit is a well balanced – Spirit, Soul and Physical life.
I have ministered in various capacities over the years and have taught and preached on various topics that can be controversial- however more and more I am convinced that this article articulates my “evolution” of christianity in my life.
Cant believe this is me saying that!
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Comment by Randy_H
7.11 pm on 28 Jul 2008
I am a lay Worship musician from California. A number of my friends are quite impressed with Tod and have been to Lakeland. While I have heard and seen things on You Tube that concern me, I decided to go the his LA meeting last weekend. This at least appears to be the Real Deal and I did not discern anything false abut it. Mr. Bentley has been a healing evangelist for quite some time and nothing like this has happened previous. Now, all of a sudden, we see this massive explosion of reported healing in his ministry. If there were not some truth to it what would explain this instant and incredible change in this man’s ministry? There is definitely something going on here. He is giving the glory to Jesus.
The experience had no particular impact on me, and it was a short freeway drive. It’s a long way across the pond. If this is real, and God intends to spread this to England it’s not as if there is an expiration date. I would not be in any particular hurry.
But then I’m just a drummer :)
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Comment by Robert Ricciardelli
10.12 pm on 28 Jul 2008
The difference is the hype and embellishment. The proclamations of healing are not happening. The 34 claimed raised from the dead, did not happen. There are fabricattions used to WOW the people.
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Pingback by The Next Wave: Church & Culture at Jason Clark
2.45 pm on 5 Aug 2008
[...] the piece on Todd Bentley I wrote, that Christianity magazine in the UK published this month. My original post on this is the most read piece I have written, with to-date, just over 1,500 read via RSS, and a [...]
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Comment by Laurie K
1.04 am on 9 Aug 2008
I see comments about churches losing members and money because of the Florida Healing Outpouring (FHO). Long before Todd came along I read in the Christian newspapers and magazines (print and online), that many churches have been losing members for some time – in particular the mainline denominations. There have been many salvations at the FHO as well as re-committments by Christias who have fallen away or grown cold. I am over 60 and from the Bible-belt so I have attended many church services and revivals over the years. A revival is not a regular church service meeting. The goal is to revive Christians (bring them back to their first love)and to bring the lost to Christ. After the revival is over, it is up to the local church to teach the new Christians. Churches should grow after a revival. The FHO is connecting the new converts to chuches in their home area. They have had short training classes in healing and evangelism. I am one of over 12,000 people who have attended such classes.
There is a move of God in Lakeland. Some apparently do not see that and I am stunned at the harsh and unloving comments I see about the FHO. It would be better if those who profess to be Christians pray rather than criticize. After all, Jesus said the world would know His sheep because they love one another.
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Pingback by Call it Apostolic Fallout : Subversive Influence
5.41 am on 13 Aug 2008
[...] My own posts on the subject had taken a stance along these lines, as do others, where reviewing the characteristics offered by which one might weigh the character and validity of what’s being reported leaves one with [...]
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Pingback by In the Coracle » » Christ in [fill-in-the-blank] is the Hope of Glory (on Todd Bentley) » “It’s almost like you’re writing a book one post at a time” - Kedge
6.57 pm on 16 Aug 2008
[...] Todd Bentley and John Crowder – UK Vineyard pastor Jason Clark’s excellent framework for how he understands the breadth of the Christian church [...]
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Comment by Ken Everett
10.23 pm on 25 Aug 2008
It’s great to see so many people questioning. Questioning is good! Questioning is Biblical and pleases the Spirit of God. I love it that people say they are ‘interested’ but there’s that ‘little nagging something that just does not feel right’.
Christians, disciples of Jesus, born-again children of God – we have a RIGHT to question. In fact we are URGED to TEST the SPIRITS and to compare every doctrine to the Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus Christ preached about! We are warned to ‘test the words of the prophets’ and if their prophecies prove to be false, we should not fear the words of those prophets any more. I find it inexpressibly sad that so many people simply accept everything they hear from the pulpits.. Much like the Davidians (Waco, Texas) and the Jim Jones followers, so many people could lose their very souls because they lack a personal relationship with God our Father, in and through His Son Jesus, as we are led and taught by His Holy Spirit and fed on his Holy Word… People, your relationship with God Who fearfully and wonderfully made you, CANNOT and MUST not be based on your relationship with a pastor or a particular church body, because these are fallible and transient but God is everlasting and cannot ever fail.
I pray that God will give His children the courage and discernment to test, prove and expose every work and worker of darkness. Do not be afraid of what ‘men in powerful positions’ might say or do, but rather exercise a numinous, awesome fear of God Who will never be mocked, will never share His glory with another and Who WILL at the end of time, apportion to each one according to his works. God Bless His children – woe to the foolish men and women who think they can hurt the Church that Jesus is building, and get away with it.
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Pingback by they think it’s all over…it is now at Jason Clark
12.47 pm on 1 Sep 2008
[...] speed and life cycle of Todd Bentley has amazed me. I blogged about him in June, after so many people were asking what I made of [...]
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Comment by Bill Campbell
2.05 pm on 16 Apr 2009
John Crowder and “familiar spirits”
===========================
Since scripture ALWAYS asserts DRUNKENNESS as UNRIGHTEOUS, then all drunken manifestations which are claimed to be from God are actually a MOCKERY of scripture, a mockery of Jesus Christ, and a mockery of the Holy Spirit.
Prov 21:17 He who LOVES PLEASURE will become poor; whoever LOVES WINE and oil will never be rich.
There is not a “Godly version” of drunkenness any more than there is a godly version of stealing, adultery or lying.
1 Thes 5:5-9 You are all SONS OF THE LIGHT and SONS OF THE DAY. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us BE ALERT AND SELF-CONTROLLED. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and THOSE WHO GET DRUNK, get drunk at night. But since WE BELONG TO THE DAY, let us BE SELF-CONTROLLED, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Since John Crowder and others manifesting in similar ways are being affected by REAL SPIRITUAL POWERS, and since their manifestations contradict REPEATING SCRIPTURAL COUNSEL against drunkenness and loss of self control, then the spiritual power MUST BE from Satan and his minions called “familiar spirits”, or demons.
These are the spirit guides of New Age religion, the occult, and Roman Catholicism (eg. Mariology).
Lev 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have FAMILIAR SPIRITS, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
“Familiar Spirits” – see http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=familiar&version1=9&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no
John Crowder and those who follow his perverted ways have FALLEN IN LOVE WITH A COUNTERFEIT “angel of light”, “the God of this age”, and may have the same destiny:
2 Cor 4:4 The GOD OF THIS AGE has BLINDED THE MINDS of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Spiritual drunkenness BLINDS THE MINDS of BELIEVERS!
2 Cor 11:14-15 Satan himself MASQUERADES as an ANGEL OF LIGHT. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
Rev 20:10 And the devil, who DECEIVED THEM, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Playing around with counterfeit “angels of light” might be BLISS and ECSTASY now, but if not repented of will lead to REJECTION by the Most High God FOREVER.
The “big party” will occur in heaven AFTER WE DIE, not now (see Rev 19:9).
Scripture asserts we now have SERIOUS WORK to do while remaining firmly SOBER.
2 Tim 4:3-5 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, KEEP YOUR HEAD in all situations, endure hardship, DO THE WORK of an evangelist, discharge ALL THE DUTIES of your ministry.
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Comment by Jonathan CHM
2.13 am on 14 Jul 2009
HOLY LAUGHER, HOLY BARK, HOLY DRUNKARD & ETC.
Holy Laughter, holy bark, holy drunkard and etc. are not found in the book of Acts during the Pentecost. Some Charismatic churches might use the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. from the Old and New Testaments to support these movements. However, bear in mind that the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. are mentioned instead of the full phrase of holy laughter, holy bark and etc. What if these practices are not from the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these practices are from the work of Holy Spirit has caused one to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and it would have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the wrong saying that these are the work of them. However, the Holy Spirit does not do it. One has indeed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by abusing the name of the Holy Spirit despite he does not do it. The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgivable according to the New Testament
DEFINITION OF BLASPHEMY IN HEBREWS/GREEK
blas’-fe-mi (blaphemia) in classical Greek and Hebrews means primarily ‘defamation’ or ‘evil-speaking’in general; ‘a word of evil omen’, hence, ‘impious, and irreverent speech against God’. The above is the extract pertaining to the meaning of blasphemy in Greek. Consider carefully about holy bark, holy laugher and etc. For instance, if these are not the work of Holy Spirit, the abusing the name of Holy Spirit by saying that these are the work of Holy Spirit is indeed delivery of irreverent speech against the Holy Spirit. For instance, if these are not the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these should be directed from the work of the Holy Spirit might have abused the name of the Holy Spirit and caused defamation of its name and one might have in turn grieved the Holy Spirit since these might not be the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit might be ended up to bear the name for the doer of holy bark, holy laugher and etc. What if it has grieved the Holy Spirit by insisting that these are the work of the Holy Spirit, our ignorance has ultimately caused the ultimate abusing and/or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
HEALINGS IN CONTEMPORARY CHARISMATIC CHURCHES
In miraculous healings among Charismatic churches today, we could easily spot out that many sick will fall down before the healers lay hands on them. However, many sick would remain unhealed after the rally despite they did fall down before the healers, i.e. Pastors that perform miraculous healings. God is definitely powerful and can heal all kinds of sicknesses. However, there is a deficiency in the healings in contemporary Charismatic world. What if the wonders are not the work of the Holy Spirit, the commenting to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit that it is he that does the work might have grieved the Holy Spirit in case if these are not the work of the Holy Spirit and it ends up that one has abused the name of the Holy Spirit and has ultimately blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.
ALL BLASPHEMIES WHETHER TOWARDS THE HOLY SPIRIT OR GOD OR JESUS CHRIST ARE TO BE CONSIDERED AS SINS
Matthew 12:31-32, “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the BLASPHEMY AGAINST the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speak against a word the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever SPEAK AGAINST the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.” As the phrase, speak against the Holy Spirit, is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 with the phrase, blasphemy against the Spirit, it implies that a person blasphemes against the Holy Spirit even if he speaks against the Holy Spirit. The same for abusing the name of the Holy Spirit in which it might have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the false saying what if the works are not from the Holy Spirit. The word, forgiven, is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 with the phrase, every sin & blasphemy, it implies that all blasphemies are to be considered as sin or else why we should need God’s forgiveness for the blasphemies. The same in abusing God’s or Jesus’ name to support their miracles are from God or Jesus respectively and these are the acts of blasphemies to be considered as sins too.
THE WELL-KNOWN VERSES IN MATTHEW 7:21-23
Matthew 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise lawlessness!”
What are the elements could be found in these verses above? There are:
1) They believe in Jesus Christ since Matthew 7:22, “(mentions that) Many will say to me..’LORD, LORD”. These people must have believed in Jesus Christ or else how they could call Jesus Christ to be their Lord as mentioned above then.
2) These people could use Jesus’ name to perform miracles since Matthew 7:22, “(mentions that) Many…have..prophesied…in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?”
3) Will they be accepted by Jesus Christ? Matthew 7:23, “…I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me”.
THE PRIDE AMONG CONTEMPORARY CHURCHES FOR THEIR NON-REPENTANCE
This is my general discovery upon Charismatic churches: Some Charismatic churches might not repent in order to do away their so-called, gift, in the churches due to they feel thieir reputations are most precious than the truth of the Bible and that causes them to persist in the practice. However, bear in mind that the insisting the so-called, gift, in their churches to be the work of the Holy Spirit might cause them to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and that causes them ultimately to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit what if the miracles are not from the work the Holy Spirit. The act of insisting to defend their reputation more important than the truth of the Bible has indeed violated the great commandment of the Lord. For Matthew 22:37, “(mentions that) Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.” The act of having a high preference for their reputations rather that upholding the truth of the Bible implies that his love towards his own reputation is more significance than his love towards God. For Matthew 22:37 has commanded us to put our love to God first instead of that has to be in replacement of our reputation.
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Comment by Romans 126
2.40 pm on 14 Jul 2009
In an earlier post I questioned what fruit can we see from Todd and his teachings, earlier this year we saw a small slice when it was revealed that he was having an adulterous affair, some fruit to have whilst in leadership! I am personally not very surprised at that but I am most dismayed that those who support him and mentor him are more concerned at getting him back into ministry and getting him healed. I read with a lot of dismay that the poor wife and children who were abandoned by Todd don’t seem to be getting much healing, help or support from the Todd Bently ministry “engine”.
Yes God forgives all those who put their faith and trust in Jesus of that I have no doubt but I question the wisdom of putting Todd Bently back into the very limelight that seems to have weakened his ability to obey God and honour his wife.
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Comment by Jonathan CHM
1.37 am on 28 Jul 2009
1) The following are the proves that angels could perform miracles healing and there are falling angels in the Scripture to be against God too:
John 5:3-4, “In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.”
2) The following are the proves that Angels could perform marvellous wonders:
Luke 1:7, “And they had no child, because that Elizabeth was barren and they both were now well stricken in years.” Luke 1:13, “but the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for their prayer is heard; and they wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John”. Luke 1:18, “And Zacharias said unto the angel, ‘Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my life well stricken in years.” Luke 1:19, “And THE ANGEL ANSWERING UNTO HIM, I AM GRABRIEL…” Luke 1:20, “AND BEHOLD, THOU SHALL BE DUMB, AND NOT ABLE TO SPEAK, UNTIL THE DAY THAT THESE THINGS SHALL BE PERFORMED, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.” Luke 1:22, “And when he came out, HE COULD NOT SPEAK UNTO THEM”.
Matthews 28:1-2, “Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Many Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And, behold, THERE WAS A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, FOR AN ANGEL OF THE LORD DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN, AND ROLLED BACK THE STONE OF THE DOOR, and sat it.”
Acts 12:23, “Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.”
3) Angels could appear in somebody’s dream:
Matthews 2:19, “…an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph…”; Matthew 1:20, “…an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream…”
As angels could perform wonders, are there any strongest proves to show that those wonders in contemporary Charismatic Churches are from God? If someone in contemporary Charismatic Church could prove it, we have to accept it. However, if nobody could prove whether the existence of wonder in contemporary Charismatic Churches is from God or the Holy Spirit or Angels, there is a danger that one would comment that certain wonders are from God or from the Holy Spirit or from Jesus Christ and, in case if they are not and it would turn up that we have forced God or Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit to bear the name of doer and indirectly we have abused the name of Jesus Christ or God or the Holy Spirit and this causes us to speak against Jesus Christ or God or the Holy Spirit indirectly.
Could contemporary Charismatic Church claim that the miracles and wonder they perform in the name of Jesus Christ, is accompanied by correct teaching (in accordance with God’s Word) and righteous living?
A good Christian performs a wonder through the name of Jesus Christ in the Church. Many audiences would claim that this be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit. As fallen angels could perform wonders, i.e. Buddhists could perform wonders as it is listed in the Internet too. What if the wonders in contemporary Charismatic churches are not from God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit, the surrounding audience that claims to be the work of the Holy Spirit/God/Jesus Christ, would have indirectly abused the name of each of them even though they might not be the one to do it and it indirectly causes the defamation of the name of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit and they might have grieved as a result of the whole church speaking against them since they might not do it. The abusing of the name of Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit/God would cause the audience to commit continual sins as when and they address these be the work of God.
Can a Christian or a Catholics claim that he has followed the correct teaching and righteous living when day by day and month by month and year by year seeing people keep on claiming the wonders in contemporary Charismatic Churches to be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit without telling them the danger that they would have sinned against God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit what if the so-called, wonders, might not be their work then?
For holy bark, you could see people running around the churches crazily to bark here and there.
For Holy laughter, you could see people laugh without stopping.
For manifestation of the Spirit, you see people roll from one place to another without knowing what he/she has done after performing.
All these are not mentioned in the book of Acts.
A number of people in the church mention that they receive revelation from God through words of knowledge, prophecy, tongues speaking, words of wisdom. Many prophets arose previously claimed that year 2000 and 1987 were the end of the world. However, the year before year 2000 and 1987, none of these people that claim to receive so-called, special gifts of the Holy Spirit, say that these years 2000 and 1987 are not the end of the world. If it is the work of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit should have informed all these people to correct their mistakes.
LUKE 9:49-50 ABOUT THOSE THAT DO NOT FOLLOW JESUS BUT COULD PERFORM WONDERS IN JESUS’ NAME
Luke 9:49, 50 (TCNT), “Hereupon John said: “Sir, we saw a man driving out demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he does not follow you with us.” “None of you must prevent him,” Jesus said to John; “he who is not against you is for you.”
Were these people that were mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 to be the disciples of Jesus since it is mentioned that they did not follow Jesus?
The following are the verses to prove that God’s people would surely follow Jesus:
John 10:27, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”
John 10:3, “To him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own sheep by nam, and leadeth them out”.
From the above verses, it is obvious that the sheep will surely follow the shepherd, Jesus.
As the phrase, he is not against you is for you, is mentioned in Luke 9:49 instead of the phrase, he is not against you is for me Jesus, it does not show that all these people that could use Jesus to perform miracles were for Jesus but for us, disciples, especially Jesus had mentioned clearly in John 10:27 and 10:3 that Christians would surely follow Jesus. The possible interpetation for Luk 9:49 for him to mention that they were for us that it might be that they could assist us in bringing outsiders to the attention of Jesus Christ for our evangelism. However, they are not for Jesus since they do not follow Jesus since they would definitely follow Jesus if they are for Jesus.
Indeed the people as mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 that could perform wonders in Jesus’s name were not God’s people or else Jesus should have included these people ont top of the twelve disciples. Or in other words, if these people that could perform wonders in Jesus’ name were God’s people, there would be more that twelve disciples instead of remaining to be twelve all the time during Jesus’ mission and it proves the fact that Jesus’ name could be abused to perform miracles. Or in other words, despite these people as mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 were not following Jesus and were not the disciples of Jesus, they could use Jesus’ name to perform wonders.
CASTING OUT DEMONS MIGHT NOT NECESSARILY CAUSE ONE TO HAVE DISTURBED BY DEMONS AS MENTIONED IN ACTS 19:13-16:
Matthew 17:15-16, “Lord have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.” Matthew 17:18-19, “And Jesus rebuked the devil and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, ‘Why could not we cast him out?’ ” Matthew 17:21, “Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.” From these verses, it is obvious that the failure in casting out demons might not necessarily cause one to be disturbed by demons as that is mentioned in Luke 9:49-50.
PROOF THAT ANGELS COULD PERFORM MIRACULOUS HEALING AND THERE ARE FALLEN ANGELS TOO:
John 5:3-4, “In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.””
From John 5:3-4, it shows that angels could heal various kinds of illnesses whether they are blinded, halt and withered. As angels could perform miraculous healings and there are so-called, fallen angels, it is irrational to jump into conclusion that certain illnesses be healed to be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit since some wonders might be the work of angels and/or fallen angels.
One might have quoted Luke 9:49-50 well that nobody should stop those people that perform miracles in Jesus’ name. However, he should meditate Matthew 7:22-23 carefully again that the so-called people to use Jesus’ name to perform wonders might be rejected by the Lord. For instance, if these people that are mentioned in Matthew 7:22-23 to use Jesus’ name to perform wonders are the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit, there should not be any strong ground for Jesus to reject them. However, Jesus will reject them despite they do perform wonders in Jesus’ name and there is a query the so-called wonders that they perform are from God. The following are the extracts:
Matthew 7:22-23, “Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise lawlessness!’
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Comment by Jonathan CHM
1.37 am on 28 Jul 2009
Charismatic people might argue that love and the so-called, gift, could exist side by side in Charismatic churches. They might argue that Charismatic people have more love than non-Charismatic people since their love extends even to every household since they exercise miraculous healings publicly so as many people could be healed from their illnesses. Not only that, they could even take that opportunity to preach to non-Christians through rallies. They could even condemn non-Charismatic churches since they are not so actively involved in preaching as compared to Charismatic churches.
John Calvin spoke in tongues. Acts 2:8-10, “And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, Medes….” From the above verses, we know that tongues are indeed languages and/or dialects. Do you know whether John Calvin spoke in foreign languages and/or dialects? If you could not prove whether he spoke in languages and/or dialects, we could not ascertain whether John Calvin was speaking in tongues or he just speaks nonsensical words. Bear in mind, tongues in the book of Acts are languages/dialects. If a person speaks not in foreign languages/dialects, he simply speaks garbage and not in tongues.
1 Corinthians 14;21, “in the law it is written, ‘With (men of) other tongues and other lips will I speak with this people and yet for all that will they not hear me’, saith the Lord.” As the phrase, other tongues, is mentioned in 1 Corinth 14:21 with the phrase, I speak with this people, it implies that tongues are definitely languages and/or dialects or else how God could converse with us then.
1 Corinth 14:2, “for that speaketh in an (unknown) tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God, for no man understandeth (him)…”. For 1 Corinth 14:4, “He that speaketh in an (unknown) tongue edifieth himself…”. For instance, if tongues are not languages and/or dialects and it cannot be understood by the speaker, how the tongues could edify the speaker himself since 1 Corinth 14:4 mentions that tongues have to edify the speaker.
1 Corinth 14:10, “There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them (is) without significant.” As the phrase, many kind of voices, is mentioned in 1 Corinth 14:10 with the phrase, the world, it definitely refers to languages and/or dialects in the world instead of outside the world, ie. alien language. McArthur claimed to have other tongues that could not be understood by human beings are not biblical.
What if the so-called, tongues, in contemporary Charismatic churches are not from the work of the Holy Spirit, the comment that their tongues are from God or the Holy Spirit or Jesus Christ would cause one to abuse the name of them and it in turn blasphemes any one of them.
1 Corinth 14;14, “For if I pray in an (unknown) tongue pray that he may interpret”. The above verse demands a tongue spoker to pray for his understanding of tongues. 1 Corinth 14;37, “If any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord”. The phrase, the things that I write to you, in 1 Corinth 14:37 is in present tense and it implies that the words that Paul just delivered for his message to the Church of Corinthians is indeed God’s commandment and this includes 1 Corinth 14:14.
1 Corinth 14:15, “What is it then? I will pray with the Spirit, and I will pray with understanding also; I will sing with Spirit, and I will sing with understanding also.” For instance, the speaker could not understand the tongue, how could they sing and pray with understanding and this contradicts 1 Corinth 14:15.
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Comment by Jonathan CHM
1.38 am on 28 Jul 2009
HOLY LAUGHER, HOLY BARK, HOLY DRUNKARD & ETC.
Holy Laughter, holy bark, holy drunkard and etc. are not found in the book of Acts during the Pentecost. Some Charismatic churches might use the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. from the Old and New Testaments to support these movements. However, bear in mind that the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. are mentioned instead of the full phrase of holy laughter, holy bark and etc. What if these practices are not from the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these practices are from the work of Holy Spirit has caused one to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and it would have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the wrong saying that these are the work of them. However, the Holy Spirit does not do it. One has indeed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by abusing the name of the Holy Spirit despite he does not do it. The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgivable according to the New Testament
DEFINITION OF BLASPHEMY IN HEBREWS/GREEK
blas’-fe-mi (blaphemia) in classical Greek and Hebrews means primarily ‘defamation’ or ‘evil-speaking’in general; ‘a word of evil omen’, hence, ‘impious, and irreverent speech against God’. The above is the extract pertaining to the meaning of blasphemy in Greek. Consider carefully about holy bark, holy laugher and etc. For instance, if these are not the work of Holy Spirit, the abusing the name of Holy Spirit by saying that these are the work of Holy Spirit is indeed delivery of irreverent speech against the Holy Spirit. For instance, if these are not the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these should be directed from the work of the Holy Spirit might have abused the name of the Holy Spirit and caused defamation of its name and one might have in turn grieved the Holy Spirit since these might not be the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit might be ended up to bear the name for the doer of holy bark, holy laugher and etc. What if it has grieved the Holy Spirit by insisting that these are the work of the Holy Spirit, our ignorance has ultimately caused the ultimate abusing and/or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
HEALINGS IN CONTEMPORARY CHARISMATIC CHURCHES
In miraculous healings among Charismatic churches today, we could easily spot out that many sick will fall down before the healers lay hands on them. However, many sick would remain unhealed after the rally despite they did fall down before the healers, i.e. Pastors that perform miraculous healings. God is definitely powerful and can heal all kinds of sicknesses. However, there is a deficiency in the healings in contemporary Charismatic world. What if the wonders are not the work of the Holy Spirit, the commenting to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit that it is he that does the work might have grieved the Holy Spirit in case if these are not the work of the Holy Spirit and it ends up that one has abused the name of the Holy Spirit and has ultimately blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.
ALL BLASPHEMIES WHETHER TOWARDS THE HOLY SPIRIT OR GOD OR JESUS CHRIST ARE TO BE CONSIDERED AS SINS
Matthew 12:31-32, “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the BLASPHEMY AGAINST the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speak against a word the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever SPEAK AGAINST the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.” As the phrase, speak against the Holy Spirit, is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 with the phrase, blasphemy against the Spirit, it implies that a person blasphemes against the Holy Spirit even if he speaks against the Holy Spirit. The same for abusing the name of the Holy Spirit in which it might have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the false saying what if the works are not from the Holy Spirit. The word, forgiven, is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 with the phrase, every sin & blasphemy, it implies that all blasphemies are to be considered as sin or else why we should need God’s forgiveness for the blasphemies. The same in abusing God’s or Jesus’ name to support their miracles are from God or Jesus respectively and these are the acts of blasphemies to be considered as sins too.
THE WELL-KNOWN VERSES IN MATTHEW 7:21-23
Matthew 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise lawlessness!”
What are the elements could be found in these verses above? There are:
1) They believe in Jesus Christ since Matthew 7:22, “(mentions that) Many will say to me..’LORD, LORD”. These people must have believed in Jesus Christ or else how they could call Jesus Christ to be their Lord as mentioned above then.
2) These people could use Jesus’ name to perform miracles since Matthew 7:22, “(mentions that) Many…have..prophesied…in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?”
3) Will they be accepted by Jesus Christ? Matthew 7:23, “…I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me”.
THE PRIDE AMONG CONTEMPORARY CHURCHES FOR THEIR NON-REPENTANCE
This is my general discovery upon Charismatic churches: Some Charismatic churches might not repent in order to do away their so-called, gift, in the churches due to they feel thieir reputations are most precious than the truth of the Bible and that causes them to persist in the practice. However, bear in mind that the insisting the so-called, gift, in their churches to be the work of the Holy Spirit might cause them to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and that causes them ultimately to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit what if the miracles are not from the work the Holy Spirit. The act of insisting to defend their reputation more important than the truth of the Bible has indeed violated the great commandment of the Lord. For Matthew 22:37, “(mentions that) Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.” The act of having a high preference for their reputations rather that upholding the truth of the Bible implies that his love towards his own reputation is more significance than his love towards God. For Matthew 22:37 has commanded us to put our love to God first instead of that has to be in replacement of our reputation.
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Comment by Bill Campbell
2.00 pm on 20 Dec 2009
People who turn up drunk at work get fired.
People who get drunk with “familiar spirits” from Lucifer will get fired into the lake of fire, if they don’t repent prior.
John Crowder’s “heavy, weighty, drunken glory” may be a premonition of the weight of a millstone:
Luke 17:1-2 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.
John Crowder’s mocking ministry is not to the unsaved, as they would be repulsed by his bizarre acts which are identical to mental illness or drunken / drugged.
John’s ministry is to cause corruption of existing christians by encouraging them to mock God with improper revelry, and form relationships with Satan’s minions, “familiar spirits”, and so reclaim Christians for the Devil.
1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Matthew 24:10-13 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Getting drunk and falling down is the opposite of standing firm.
The “slain in the spirit” (falling down) phenomena is not from God of Gen 1:1, it is from “god of this age” 2 Cor 4:4
The only exception is falling down after being killed by God for wrongdoing (eg. Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-11). Slain means being killed.
Instead of teaching people to fear the lord, John Crowder is teaching them to treat God as an object to be indulged, like a prostitute for sex lust and drunken dissipation.
It is deception and blasphemy to associate these immoralities with “the joy of the Lord” mentioned in the Bible.
Rom 13:12-14 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
Manifestations from “familiar spirits” might feel good, but immoral activities always do feel good, such as drunkenness, drug taking, and fornication/adultery.
Following mystical ways is involvement in the magic arts (mystical = mystery).
The only response from participators is either accepting the certainty of damnation to Hell, or repenting while there is still opportunity.
Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars –their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Proverbs 14:12, 16:25 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Psalm 111:10-112:1 The fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.
Praise the LORD. Blessed is the man who fears the lord, who finds great delight in his commands.
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