<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: &#8220;A bottomless pit of&#160;desires&#8230;&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://jasonclark.ws/2008/02/15/a-bottomless-pit-of-desires/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2008%2F02%2F15%2Fa-bottomless-pit-of-desires%2F&amp;seed_title=%26%238220%3BA+bottomless+pit+of%26%23160%3Bdesires%26%238230%3B%26%238221%3B</link>
	<description>Trying to make safe spaces for diverse and healthy conversations about church.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:00:21 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Julie Clawson</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2008%2F02%2F15%2Fa-bottomless-pit-of-desires%2F&amp;seed_title=%26%238220%3BA+bottomless+pit+of%26%23160%3Bdesires%26%238230%3B%26%238221%3B/comment-page-1/#comment-12083</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Clawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 19:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2008/02/15/a-bottomless-pit-of-desires/#comment-12083</guid>
		<description>I am all about changing systems, but I am wary of ideas that could prevent us from showing love wherever and whenever.  Sure no one physically needs hot chocolate - but the gesture of love might be exactly what that person needs right then.  As for the day care example - I agree that some people do work two jobs just to keep up with their neighbors, but if the church stereotypes all those needing day care like that then true needs are ignored.  I also have to then wonder what the church then did to change people&#039;s perspectives?  Did they insist everyone sell their homes and move away to cheaper neighborhoods?  Sometimes bringing light to a broken system isn&#039;t about condoning the system, it&#039;s just about bringing light.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am all about changing systems, but I am wary of ideas that could prevent us from showing love wherever and whenever.  Sure no one physically needs hot chocolate &#8211; but the gesture of love might be exactly what that person needs right then.  As for the day care example &#8211; I agree that some people do work two jobs just to keep up with their neighbors, but if the church stereotypes all those needing day care like that then true needs are ignored.  I also have to then wonder what the church then did to change people&#8217;s perspectives?  Did they insist everyone sell their homes and move away to cheaper neighborhoods?  Sometimes bringing light to a broken system isn&#8217;t about condoning the system, it&#8217;s just about bringing light.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2008%2F02%2F15%2Fa-bottomless-pit-of-desires%2F&amp;seed_title=%26%238220%3BA+bottomless+pit+of%26%23160%3Bdesires%26%238230%3B%26%238221%3B/comment-page-1/#comment-12077</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 18:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2008/02/15/a-bottomless-pit-of-desires/#comment-12077</guid>
		<description>Actually, I don&#039;t believe Jesus&#039; call was to give free crap to people who couldn&#039;t afford it, either.  

On top of that, looking at the example of Jesus, he didn&#039;t spend too much effort feeding the poor, and the church only fed other members of the church.  They did, however, welcome anyone in (at first, immediately after baptism; later, during persecutions, after a period of learning culminating in baptism and confirmation).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I don&#8217;t believe Jesus&#8217; call was to give free crap to people who couldn&#8217;t afford it, either.  </p>
<p>On top of that, looking at the example of Jesus, he didn&#8217;t spend too much effort feeding the poor, and the church only fed other members of the church.  They did, however, welcome anyone in (at first, immediately after baptism; later, during persecutions, after a period of learning culminating in baptism and confirmation).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2008%2F02%2F15%2Fa-bottomless-pit-of-desires%2F&amp;seed_title=%26%238220%3BA+bottomless+pit+of%26%23160%3Bdesires%26%238230%3B%26%238221%3B/comment-page-1/#comment-12075</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 18:01:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2008/02/15/a-bottomless-pit-of-desires/#comment-12075</guid>
		<description>&#039;I don’t believe Jesus’ call was to give free crap to people who can already afford it.&#039;

Priceless Petey, thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;I don’t believe Jesus’ call was to give free crap to people who can already afford it.&#8217;</p>
<p>Priceless Petey, thank you.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Erika Haub</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2008%2F02%2F15%2Fa-bottomless-pit-of-desires%2F&amp;seed_title=%26%238220%3BA+bottomless+pit+of%26%23160%3Bdesires%26%238230%3B%26%238221%3B/comment-page-1/#comment-12007</link>
		<dc:creator>Erika Haub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 02:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2008/02/15/a-bottomless-pit-of-desires/#comment-12007</guid>
		<description>Scott,

Thanks for attending to the nuance here...

Willimon is of course being provocative (which is one of the things I love about the guy!) and that serves the great purpose of bringing us to a place of examination and evaluation: we can so easily drift into stuff that over time becomes unexamined in terms of ministry practices.

Thanks for your thoughts!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott,</p>
<p>Thanks for attending to the nuance here&#8230;</p>
<p>Willimon is of course being provocative (which is one of the things I love about the guy!) and that serves the great purpose of bringing us to a place of examination and evaluation: we can so easily drift into stuff that over time becomes unexamined in terms of ministry practices.</p>
<p>Thanks for your thoughts!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott Lenger</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2008%2F02%2F15%2Fa-bottomless-pit-of-desires%2F&amp;seed_title=%26%238220%3BA+bottomless+pit+of%26%23160%3Bdesires%26%238230%3B%26%238221%3B/comment-page-1/#comment-11971</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Lenger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 13:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2008/02/15/a-bottomless-pit-of-desires/#comment-11971</guid>
		<description>From my reading of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.stevesjogren.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Steve Sjogren&#039;s&lt;/a&gt;, the &lt;em&gt;Conspiracy of Kindness&lt;/em&gt;, the primary intent of giveaways (also known as &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.servantevangelism.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Servant Evangelism&lt;/a&gt;) is not to meet someones &#039;inflated desire&#039; (though this is certainly a byproduct) but to create an opportunity to connect.

A free donut given to morning commuters is obviously not going to meet their need for food, but it may bring attention to the cultural problem of isolation and reveal the individual need for community. At the same time, I&#039;ll grant that there are certainly better ways of connecting than handing someone a donut.

However, I think the real problem is when people misuse servant evangelism as a marketing strategy for church growth - at which point I would argue the action ceases to become servant evangelism. The example of giving away $.02 stamps probably falls in this category.

I agree with Willimon&#039;s criticism of our cultures exaggeration of legitimate needs, but I think the interests of servant evangelism are a little more nuanced than he gives credit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From my reading of <a href="http://www.stevesjogren.com/" rel="nofollow">Steve Sjogren&#8217;s</a>, the <em>Conspiracy of Kindness</em>, the primary intent of giveaways (also known as <a href="http://www.servantevangelism.com" rel="nofollow">Servant Evangelism</a>) is not to meet someones &#8216;inflated desire&#8217; (though this is certainly a byproduct) but to create an opportunity to connect.</p>
<p>A free donut given to morning commuters is obviously not going to meet their need for food, but it may bring attention to the cultural problem of isolation and reveal the individual need for community. At the same time, I&#8217;ll grant that there are certainly better ways of connecting than handing someone a donut.</p>
<p>However, I think the real problem is when people misuse servant evangelism as a marketing strategy for church growth &#8211; at which point I would argue the action ceases to become servant evangelism. The example of giving away $.02 stamps probably falls in this category.</p>
<p>I agree with Willimon&#8217;s criticism of our cultures exaggeration of legitimate needs, but I think the interests of servant evangelism are a little more nuanced than he gives credit.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave Walters</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2008%2F02%2F15%2Fa-bottomless-pit-of-desires%2F&amp;seed_title=%26%238220%3BA+bottomless+pit+of%26%23160%3Bdesires%26%238230%3B%26%238221%3B/comment-page-1/#comment-11925</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Walters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2008/02/15/a-bottomless-pit-of-desires/#comment-11925</guid>
		<description>Every person&#039;s deepest need is God.  Most of our fulfilmnent issues are an attempt to find significance, security, or provision somewhere other than the true God.  How do I use a person&#039;s present perceived need to direct their attention to the pressing, eternal, and transcendant need for Jesus?  Jesus did this with the woman at the well and various other points in His ministry.  Will I trust the Holy Spirit to help me to do the same in life and ministry.  Church is something we are rather than a building we enter.  Our position is a forward projection of God&#039;s power and light into a dark world.  We are not abandoned and God is faithful to His word and promises.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every person&#8217;s deepest need is God.  Most of our fulfilmnent issues are an attempt to find significance, security, or provision somewhere other than the true God.  How do I use a person&#8217;s present perceived need to direct their attention to the pressing, eternal, and transcendant need for Jesus?  Jesus did this with the woman at the well and various other points in His ministry.  Will I trust the Holy Spirit to help me to do the same in life and ministry.  Church is something we are rather than a building we enter.  Our position is a forward projection of God&#8217;s power and light into a dark world.  We are not abandoned and God is faithful to His word and promises.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2008%2F02%2F15%2Fa-bottomless-pit-of-desires%2F&amp;seed_title=%26%238220%3BA+bottomless+pit+of%26%23160%3Bdesires%26%238230%3B%26%238221%3B/comment-page-1/#comment-11880</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 14:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2008/02/15/a-bottomless-pit-of-desires/#comment-11880</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this post, Erika. 

Your statement, &quot;Too often what I see are churches that cater to a bunch of felt needs in a given community to get people &#039;in the door.&#039; It is no wonder, then, that churches and their leaders feel quickly overrun with an impossible list of expectations and unmet needs.&quot; really touched a nerve. I don&#039;t know whether to repent or reflect more deeply on the shortcomings of my own leadership. I loathe the idea of becoming an ecclesiastical programmer. And so do many of my friends. But it seems that we have become beholden to a system that is structured towards infancy and resists the missional impulse given to us by God. 

Once again, thank you. Peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this post, Erika. </p>
<p>Your statement, &#8220;Too often what I see are churches that cater to a bunch of felt needs in a given community to get people &#8216;in the door.&#8217; It is no wonder, then, that churches and their leaders feel quickly overrun with an impossible list of expectations and unmet needs.&#8221; really touched a nerve. I don&#8217;t know whether to repent or reflect more deeply on the shortcomings of my own leadership. I loathe the idea of becoming an ecclesiastical programmer. And so do many of my friends. But it seems that we have become beholden to a system that is structured towards infancy and resists the missional impulse given to us by God. </p>
<p>Once again, thank you. Peace.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2008%2F02%2F15%2Fa-bottomless-pit-of-desires%2F&amp;seed_title=%26%238220%3BA+bottomless+pit+of%26%23160%3Bdesires%26%238230%3B%26%238221%3B/comment-page-1/#comment-11877</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 22:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2008/02/15/a-bottomless-pit-of-desires/#comment-11877</guid>
		<description>This is a very difficult topic as it touches many nerves. One nerve is the need/want/entitlement issue.  Another is the idea that the church should serve the poor with no strings attached as opposed to meeting needs to get &#039;people in the door.&#039;  A third is the relationship between felt needs, material needs, emotional needs, and spiritual needs 

I personally take a very firm line on some of these issues that is deeply unpopular.  I believe that the church, institutionally, has no business helping the non-Christian poor until everyone in the church has already been provided for.  I am for striking widows from the rolls unless they behave appropriately, etc.  In short, I stand with the apostles and early deacons.  
I&#039;ve heard arguments from plenty of people who don&#039;t.  

However, as individuals, I think we should be willing to give alms or otherwise meet the needs of non-Christians, poor or otherwise, who won&#039;t be able to repay us.  A guy with a flat tire needs my help in his moment, and compassion should move me to pull over and render assistance.  Sure, he isn&#039;t starving, but so what?  The Good Samaritan was Good.  I should want to be good.

I put these behaviors in different categories, and neither are really about evangelism - though if people saw that the church contained no poor, no needy, no lonely, no unemployed, they might get themselves in the door without any prodding...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very difficult topic as it touches many nerves. One nerve is the need/want/entitlement issue.  Another is the idea that the church should serve the poor with no strings attached as opposed to meeting needs to get &#8216;people in the door.&#8217;  A third is the relationship between felt needs, material needs, emotional needs, and spiritual needs </p>
<p>I personally take a very firm line on some of these issues that is deeply unpopular.  I believe that the church, institutionally, has no business helping the non-Christian poor until everyone in the church has already been provided for.  I am for striking widows from the rolls unless they behave appropriately, etc.  In short, I stand with the apostles and early deacons.<br />
I&#8217;ve heard arguments from plenty of people who don&#8217;t.  </p>
<p>However, as individuals, I think we should be willing to give alms or otherwise meet the needs of non-Christians, poor or otherwise, who won&#8217;t be able to repay us.  A guy with a flat tire needs my help in his moment, and compassion should move me to pull over and render assistance.  Sure, he isn&#8217;t starving, but so what?  The Good Samaritan was Good.  I should want to be good.</p>
<p>I put these behaviors in different categories, and neither are really about evangelism &#8211; though if people saw that the church contained no poor, no needy, no lonely, no unemployed, they might get themselves in the door without any prodding&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Faith</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2008%2F02%2F15%2Fa-bottomless-pit-of-desires%2F&amp;seed_title=%26%238220%3BA+bottomless+pit+of%26%23160%3Bdesires%26%238230%3B%26%238221%3B/comment-page-1/#comment-11873</link>
		<dc:creator>Faith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 07:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2008/02/15/a-bottomless-pit-of-desires/#comment-11873</guid>
		<description>So sorry, I sent this out over an email list at school and decided to post on the site too, that&#039;s why it says Harvard.

Thanks for your reply, I do see what point you were trying to make more clearly now, and though I definitely see that, I think people take articles like this to the extreme sometimes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So sorry, I sent this out over an email list at school and decided to post on the site too, that&#8217;s why it says Harvard.</p>
<p>Thanks for your reply, I do see what point you were trying to make more clearly now, and though I definitely see that, I think people take articles like this to the extreme sometimes.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Erika Haub</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2008%2F02%2F15%2Fa-bottomless-pit-of-desires%2F&amp;seed_title=%26%238220%3BA+bottomless+pit+of%26%23160%3Bdesires%26%238230%3B%26%238221%3B/comment-page-1/#comment-11872</link>
		<dc:creator>Erika Haub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 06:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2008/02/15/a-bottomless-pit-of-desires/#comment-11872</guid>
		<description>Faith,

I am so glad you brought the points you share here to the discussion. I agree with you: Jesus certainly engaged the spiritual needs of rich and poor alike. And I certainly was not suggesting that any one demographic was more or less worthy of receiving the loving witness of Christ-followers everywhere! Whether at Harvard, in Hollywood, or in South Central where I live, people are in need of Jesus. And followers of Jesus are called to bear witness to the kingdom in all of those places. 

The question I was wrestling with has more to do with how or whether our witness should critique the needs/desires/entitlements of our culture. Your answer is that caring for people where they are at, meeting what they see as their needs, is a great way to show God&#039;s love for them. I totally agree! When I think about how we are living in our community, there are so many illustrations that come to mind of how this exact thing led someone closer to a relationship with God. Maybe I am wondering where we draw the line...

Here&#039;s an example, and it&#039;s also from Willimon (his book, co-authored with Hauerwaus): a church planned to open a day-care for families in the community (a very huge felt-need). One of the elders raised this challenge: she suggested that the reason most of these folks needed childcare was so that they could work two jobs to have a bunch of money to buy a lot of stuff and keep up with their neighbors. She suggested that maybe the church shouldn&#039;t be the place enabling that.

Thanks, Faith, for pushing back. It is great to have some discussion here!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Faith,</p>
<p>I am so glad you brought the points you share here to the discussion. I agree with you: Jesus certainly engaged the spiritual needs of rich and poor alike. And I certainly was not suggesting that any one demographic was more or less worthy of receiving the loving witness of Christ-followers everywhere! Whether at Harvard, in Hollywood, or in South Central where I live, people are in need of Jesus. And followers of Jesus are called to bear witness to the kingdom in all of those places. </p>
<p>The question I was wrestling with has more to do with how or whether our witness should critique the needs/desires/entitlements of our culture. Your answer is that caring for people where they are at, meeting what they see as their needs, is a great way to show God&#8217;s love for them. I totally agree! When I think about how we are living in our community, there are so many illustrations that come to mind of how this exact thing led someone closer to a relationship with God. Maybe I am wondering where we draw the line&#8230;</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an example, and it&#8217;s also from Willimon (his book, co-authored with Hauerwaus): a church planned to open a day-care for families in the community (a very huge felt-need). One of the elders raised this challenge: she suggested that the reason most of these folks needed childcare was so that they could work two jobs to have a bunch of money to buy a lot of stuff and keep up with their neighbors. She suggested that maybe the church shouldn&#8217;t be the place enabling that.</p>
<p>Thanks, Faith, for pushing back. It is great to have some discussion here!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
