Church as the original 3rd place..?
24 Jan 2008
In this post I’d like to pick up an idea of Dr Luke Bretherton’s that the early church was the orginal 3rd space? A space that allowed a radical rebasing of the cultural values around for those of the Kingdom of God. What implications and challenges does this have for christians seeking to use 3rd places today?
A what space?
By 3rd place I mean somewhere that is outside the first two spaces in our life of work and home. Ray Oldenburg is credited with coining the term in his book: The Great Good Place.
Ray writes about how informal public gathering places are essential to community and public life. He argues that most people have three places in their life that they feel define them: home, work and a third place. And that bars, coffee shops, general stores, and other “third places” are central to local democracy and community vitality. Such places are also called “social condensers” — an important way in which the community developed and retained cohesion and a sense of identity. The third-place concept has become a buzzword for retailers as a place to aspire to become – the concept is so strong that Starbucks are celebrated for successfully building their entire marketing campaign on this concept.
A missional space?
3rd place is not only a buzzword for retailers but also for many christians looking to do some form of community based/engaging missional activity. Christians have taken the concept and run with it as a form/way of doing church for example these articles by: steve collins and Ken Dean.
It’s easy to see the appeal, not only is it a culturally familiar form but the characteristics of it fit well with the idea of a 3rd space for christians to connect with God, each other and their communities. Ray lists the following 8 characteristics of a 3rd place:
1. They’re neutral ground
2. They’re “levelers” where rank and status don’t matter
3. Conversation is a main activity
4. They’re easy to access and accommodating
5. They have a core group of influential regulars
6. They have a low profile instead of being showy
7. The mood is playful
8. They feel like homes away from home
Neutral spaces?
Whilst i remain postive about all forms of church and aware that all of them have advantages and disadvantages i am uneasy about whether all these characteristics of 3rd place sit easy with the values/culture of the church? For example, are 3rd places really ever “neutral venues” and should church seek to be one?
Starbucks, after all, is not a neutral venue – it is a consumer venue that demands we participate in the rituals of consumerism. To go into starbucks and use that space we have to make an offering – usually about £3+ for a coffee. If we want to remain in that space for any length of time we will need to pay again… and again.
Dr Luke Bretherton in the book: Remembering our future challenges our inherited values in the use of a secular/cultural 3rd space for church. His starting place is that we are already shaped by the practices and disciplines of consumer culture [for instance the regular liturgy of TV advertisements reoccurring every 15 mins] such that we are seldom aware of the effect of them on us.
Luke argues that people don’t just believe and belong to one place but that they also actively belong to non-church places which are not neutral in relation to Christianity. Many of these non-church places are antithetical to the faithful practice of christianity: for example, to be in a cafe is not to be in a neutral space but to be in a site of consumer capitalism. Hence, to claim one is forming a church in one is deeply problematic.”
Are emerging churches in danger of becoming collaborators with consumer culture “while older, inherited forms of church are sites of radical resistance, deeply relevant precisely in their non-conformity to contemporary culture”?
Church as the orginal 3rd space:
Bretherton has argued that the early church was an orginal 3rd space – outside of that of the oikos (the family) and the polis (the city/civic life). It was a radical space in which people could belong to a new family/new kingdom – a space that undermined rather than reinforced the inherited cultural values of the time.
In other words it was a space where women and slaves could mix freely/equally with men, they could share a role in leading, in decision making, in acting on the mission of God together. It was a spcae where the distinctions of gender, social class, wealth etc made by the oikos or polis were transcended. It was a true 3rd space in that the radical rebasing of values were not centred on society/culture but the cruciform Christ, or as St Paul put it:
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
What does this mean for church as the 3rd place?
What if church is and of itself a 3rd place, outside that of our working/leisure/individualistic/consumer culture? A place where instead of participating and collaborating with our consuimer selves our dominant cultural values are confronted, challenged and changed? Such that we have a dedicated space in our lives to re-orient our values, priorities and life as a community around Jesus and his Kingdom.
What if, as Bretherton argues, our historic christian witness is a communal space dedicated to God which deliberately causes disruption to our lives to attend? A space and a place designed to frustrate us, disrupt us, disorientate us and help us find a new centre and reality upon which to do life together?
Or in the words of Archbishop Romero of El Salvador:
“a Church that does not provoke any crises, a gospel that doesn’t unsettle, a word of God that doesn’t get under anyone’s skin, a word of God that doesn’t touch the real sin of the society in which it is being proclaimed – what gospel is that?”
Let me finish by asking you a couple of questions…
- do our forms of church allows us to choose to escape from the other gods clamouring for our attention and allows us a space to interpret our context through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus? Should they?
- should church be a place a place that provides counter practices such as fasting, serving, giving, communion which helps enable christians to resist the process of commodification and competition?
- how, if we chose to use a 3rd place, can we radically rebase the inherent cultural values within it on to ones that are centred on the Kingdom of God?
47 comments
Trackback
Comment by Mak
9.49 pm on 24 Jan 2008
but isn’t that the problem? we only have space in our lives for 3 spaces and if church is our third space we don’t engage relationships anywhere else? because for most Christians church IS their third space…and that’s exactly the problem.
Comment by Jon Hallewell
10.47 am on 25 Jan 2008
very interesting Mak – I totally agree. I’ve warmed to some of the third place thinking – i think its aim to get christians out of 4 walls church and engaging with people in faith and life. But we need to engage our faith in spaces 1,2,3,4,5…. in order to actually change the world, in workplace, family as well as at coffee shops and gyms. If church as its own space were, well, less entertaining and more directed at our other life spaces maybe we’d see more impact. This is what I’m getting at with LifeShapedFaith. HOWEVER – its easy to look to the church to ‘provide this service’ for us. I think that it is really about personal responsibility: and therefore I’m just trying to work this through in my real life. As I do this I’m finding most church experiences to be alien to me – a long way to go.
Comment by Paul
4.20 pm on 26 Jan 2008
Thanks Jon, i’m intrigued by what you’d see in a church that is “less entertainting and more dedicated at our other life spaces?”
Comment by Paul
4.16 pm on 26 Jan 2008
Thanks Mak, you make a great point, christians need to be engaged outside the church – 3rd spaces are great places for that. My thought is more if we are having church as a 3rd space then what values are we taking in their with us and are those the values that we want? Maybe they are?
Comment by dan brown
1.50 am on 25 Jan 2008
The eight charactictics of 3rd space are all interesting and provide a challenge for our churches to ask the question are we demonstrating the image and mission of God. Perhaps the most difficult question to answer for me: Is the church a neutral ground? For a lot of people in the work place they might come to an event at a resturant or some other place away from a church building. The church building carries a lot of baggage and that makes it necessary for us, as the church, to move out of the building and be seen at the water cooler at work, on the golf course or at an entertainment event with others. We need to speak to our non-christian friends about the consumer calendar and give them an alternative about what the God hidden in JC has on the calendar. We need to read the newspapers and let Christianity inform our ideals of democracy and econmomics, unfortunately most of my christian friends allow democracy and exonomics to inform what God is doing. Our goal as emerging Christians needs to be about resolving confict face to face and not get caught behind our information technology that encourages us to stay behind a desk instead of having a face to face meeting. I am not sure this adds much to any of your questions but, this is a subject that deserves much conversation.
Comment by Paul
4.29 pm on 26 Jan 2008
Thanks Dan, you’re right that there can be a lot of inherent baggage with church. I wonder how much of that baggage is tied up with previous forms of cultural entaglement and what the danger is that we merely continue to do this?
Comment by steven hamilton
12.36 pm on 25 Jan 2008
it seems to me that rather than church being the third space, the gatherings of church take place in this 3rd space…which would allow others to wander into our meetings (and just perhpas the secrets of their hearts might be laid bare…and they might proclaim: surely God is in this place with these people)…
so is this 3rd space really “public space”, rather than “church”? i mean the early church in Jerusalem met in the temple, which was public space, as well as house-to-house…or am i off here?
Comment by Paul
4.40 pm on 26 Jan 2008
Thanks Steven, yes that is a clear plus, church as a third place which is publically accessible but how do you make it clearly recognisable as church – what values does it embody/display that will confront and challenge the secrets of our hearts?
The temple was a recognised sacred/thin space which again might make us ask how we use buildings, especially those which have been set up and dedicated as churches. It is interesting to see how many old church buildings are becoming flats or pubs and new purpose built buildings are being created. It’s outside the scope of this discussion but what is the place of the sacred in architecture?
Comment by Jamie Arpin-Ricci
4.46 pm on 25 Jan 2008
As we develop a 3rd place in our community (www.dustycover.ca) we have decided that the neutrality value is essential for genuine relational and missional dialogue with our neighbours. However, we also felt that it could be a compromise if the space was also the focal point for being church. As we are in dialogue with another group to partner a church plant, we have been clear that the bookstore could be used as a bridge between the community and the church, but that we wanted to protect both sides by keeping the store neutral.
I think part of the challenge is that many of us are still caught in the thinking that our primary missional engagement comes through our “Sabbath worship place” rather than through the Church- the dynamic community of faith that lives in and among the world (but not of it). Yes, our communal worship gathering can be missional, but it is not it’s primary purpose.
Excellent post!
Peace,
Jamie
Comment by Mak
7.43 pm on 25 Jan 2008
so you’re reading this as “bringing church into” the third space? cuz that has a place I’m sure. But making church a third space concerns me
Comment by Paul
4.51 pm on 26 Jan 2008
Hi Mak, why does making church a 3rd space concern you? is it cos of yout concern of the social inbreeding of christians?
Comment by Paul
4.47 pm on 26 Jan 2008
Thanks Jamie, that’s a great example of how to use 3rd places as engagment, using them as neutral ground and recognising that church is not a neutral space.
Comment by jprapp
9.57 pm on 25 Jan 2008
On the Road Again … Church with a Bag of Methamphetamine in a Pick-up Truck on the Road
Sorry for the Willy Nelson overtones.
And drugs.
But, not really.
I had a young man call me recently. He was all messed up. Scared. Alone. Fearful. He said on the phone, “hey man, I really need God in my life.”
I asked him where he wanted to get together?
“Nowhere, I just want to drive.”
He came over, picked me up. And we drove.
Around town. Just driving.
He cried. He prayed. He reached in his pocket and pulled out a bag of meth. He stuck the bag in my right hand. I put my left hand on his shoulder, and prayed that the Spirit of God forgive him, heal him, and fill him with drunkenness from fullness of the Spirit.
On the road.
A sheriff officer on duty in a Ford Bronco was just then exiting a Burger King, and stopped at the entrance to the our road, looking straight at me, right in my eye, with my one hand holding a plump bag of meth, and with my other hand on the man’s head, praying. A freak show. On the road.
Fortunately, I knew this officer from previous cases of legal-work and ministry that I do with indigents. I nodded at him out my window, “it’s okay.” He nodded back at me, silently. He turned and went the other way. Down the road.
I asked one of my close spiritual mentor-supervisors, who oversees my work — I asked for prayer for this man, maybe help getting him into a church. My mentor barked back at me, “Church is on the streets, out of the box. Stay there. Never leave.”
There are some confessions, some love, some intimacy with the deepest souls of others — some experiences that no “place” can handle – no Starbucks, no Burger King, no 3rd-place church. Sure, this is an overstatement. I’ve seen dope bags thrown on the altar. But, fixed locations don’t really cut it when church happens on the road — “I just want to drive.”
I too, with Jason, love church. But, I can never define what “church” really is.
Sometimes, “church” is a moving target, a pick-up truck on the road, moving and dodging, deliberately dodging on a moving path in between all the other spaces that we build, all the other spaces and fixed places, houses, buildings, cathedrals – fixed places where bags of meth cannot be passed from one hand to another as a confession of sin, as a cry and prayer from the howling guts of pain, asking “Help.”
About church as a fixed place, a “space.”
Thank God for potentially arresting officers who look the other way, who turn and go the other way – instead of “arresting” the church on the move, instead of “arresting” the church of two or three on the road, instead of “arresting” the movement of the mobile-church, instead of “arresting” and dragging the moving church into a fixed prison-of-location.
Jim
Comment by Paul
4.56 pm on 26 Jan 2008
Thanks Jim, really inspiring :). I think church comes in many different forms, in many different places, in many different ways and thank God for that :)
Comment by Mak
3.17 am on 27 Jan 2008
Jim – well put. emphasizes the importance that we not get stuck seeing “church” as ONLY a building/locale/identifiable beast .
Comment by Jamie Arpin-Ricci
4.19 pm on 26 Jan 2008
Hey Mak,
Sorry for the confusion. No, I am not necessarily reading that into the article, just sharing my perspective on the issues. I think there are aspects of third place dynamics which the Church needs to embrace. However, in the strictest sense, Church as third place is very problematic.
Peace,
Jamie
Comment by Paul
4.54 pm on 26 Jan 2008
Thanks Jamie, i think it is problematic unless as church we can reinterpret we can reshape church as a space outside the culture which gives us new perspective/orientation outside our entertainment/work spaces…
Comment by Jamie Arpin-Ricci
5.09 pm on 26 Jan 2008
Paul,
I agree, though I wonder if it ceases to be a true third place. I agree with your premise, just not sure that the third place is the medium to do it. Again, I think it serves that end, but as a model in and of itself, the neutrality could become compromise.
Peace,
Jamie
Comment by Paul
5.24 pm on 26 Jan 2008
Thanks Jamie – yes i agree which is why i wonder if we would have the concept of 3rd space without church in the first place? Church as the orginal 3rd space in a a culture of family or city. Now can church return to that and be a space that critiques/rebases our values that are implicit within our entertainment/work spaced culture? Maybe church as 4th space?? ;)
Comment by Jamie Arpin-Ricci
5.36 pm on 26 Jan 2008
Hey Paul,
I think that the church was the significant third place in North American culture. Beyond that, I am not so sure. The European culture has long had public houses (pubs), cafes, etc. In North America it was a very frequent third place, though there has never been a general sense of neutrality, diversity, etc. Good thoughts.
Peace,
Jamie
Comment by Mak
4.42 pm on 28 Jan 2008
the church has always been the third place in America for sure. And because of our cultural christianity it “worked” I suppose…to a point. I *do* agree with you paul that we need evaluate the “inner church culture”, I suppose one could hold the critique against the qualities of third place but not for the purpose of making church a third place.
Comment by Paul
10.01 am on 29 Jan 2008
I’m probably not being very clear that i’m riffing on the 3rd place idea, in other words, i’m not saying church becomes a new 3rd place in terms of fully replacing our social spaces but it becomes a 3rd place in terms of acting as place of cultural detox and Kingdom re-orientation that exists above the values/ethos of the other more consumer/self-centric oriented spaces in our lives.
Comments won’t nest below this level.
Reply here
Comment by Mak
3.21 am on 27 Jan 2008
I just don’t think we can talk about third places and include the church in the conversation – it doesn’t really jive with my understanding of the concept of a third place. Maybe I’m just too linear in thinking…maybe my fellow INTJ here (Jamie) can help me out.
Comment by Jamie Arpin-Ricci
4.40 am on 27 Jan 2008
Hey Mak (aka INTJer),
I think that many Christians are being drawn to the concept of the third place for two primary reasons: first, in North America at least, we are seeing the disappearance of the few third places our culture has; second, and more importantly, as Christians (especially, but not exclusively, Evangelicals) have withdrawn from engaging the culture (and thus withdrawn from third places) we are seeing the major vacuum in these sphere where Christian worldview are not present. Therefore, we are rightfully seeing the value of these places.
However, the challenge is that we have so identified our identity and missional engagement as church within the “Sunday morning” mentality, that we only see application within that expression. Rather, we need to see the value of the third place in the broader missional context. Therefore, we can engage existing third places to build genuine relationships with our neighbours. We can even create those third places as missional “bridges”.
However, in the strictest sense of the concept, I do not think it is wise to structure our church communities as third places. As the list of criteria in this post indicates, there would be too much compromise.
Again, I think this problem largely arises due to our tendency to associate “church” with that place we gather for worship (thus a “place”). If we can see that the Sabbath gathering is one aspect (even a central aspect) of a larger whole, the place for third places in our missional lives becomes easier to conceive of.
So, did I help or muddy the water even more?
Peace,
Jamie
Comment by Mak
4.40 pm on 28 Jan 2008
hehe…no, that was helpful.
I was trying to find a way to NOT disagree with this post but I guess the truth is that I’m just not comfortable with looking at the church as a third place.
Comment by Debbie
10.43 pm on 27 Jan 2008
This reminds me of the traditional church involvement in the community which i grew up with & isn’t really as prominent in the new streams of church.
Having moved to a new area fairly recently with a toddler & a new baby, the local baptist church provided me with exactly the kind of space you’re describing. Through a preschool, toddler group & a cafe, there was a space i could get to know people, experience amazing kindness and also know that it was based on love for God. It definitely provided me with a ‘3rd space’ to develop relationships & feel accepted – i’m not sure whether it ticks all your boxes though.
Funnily enough, i think the presence of a church building makes it more obvious what you stand for, than when these activities are done separately from a traditionl church building as everyone knows where they stand.
Comment by Jamie Arpin-Ricci
1.56 am on 28 Jan 2008
Debbie,
That’s great that the church provide a third place for you to connect. The preschool, cafe, etc. are great examples of using third places to bridge into the community. It isn’t about checking boxes, just understanding what is meant by the general concept.
Peace,
Jamie
Comment by Mak
4.39 pm on 28 Jan 2008
that’s really great! and I think churches certainly can do those things and it’s good. but again, the concern there is that when the church meets all those needs, it’s very hard to take your life “out”.
Comment by Debbie
5.18 pm on 28 Jan 2008
i may have misunderstood you, but the point it that the church is providing this to me as someone who is not part of the church, and likewise to many others too. Therefore, i am being provided with somewhere to hang out which is heavily influenced by christians and the christian message, but which is in a way a ‘neutral’ space.
From this space i have built relationships with both people who are christians and people who aren’t christians, so not quite sure why i need to take my life ‘out’ or where ‘out’ is?
Comment by Mak
9.09 pm on 28 Jan 2008
that’s great :) I’m glad for that and for you.
I’m not sure where you live but in the US that just doesn’t really happen that way – people do not see the church as neutral and really all it serves is to hem in Christians within their own community. If you’re not a Christian and you’re finding great community in a church then in my experience that’s an aberration – a good one I suppose, but not the norm. and I’m not sure how I feel about making that the norm.
Comment by Paul
10.11 am on 29 Jan 2008
It’s a bit of difference in terms of christian culture between the states and the UK, here in London we have less than 1% of people around us regularly connected with church so church as a place of community connection and cohesion is a vital role.
Cos of the % the norm of most of the social spaces/places in our life is that we are not hanging out with christians.
I guess you can say in the UK christians are trying to break into the societal space and in the USA maybe you folks are trying to break out of church spaces into society?
Comments won’t nest below this level.
Comment by Debbie
8.43 pm on 29 Jan 2008
at the time i described above i had pretty much given up on God & Church for a whole variety of reasons. Therefore, I very much was just looking for friendship in a new situation & was genuinely impacted by what i met. I did not go to any of their services or ‘Christian’ meetings. Now I’m enjoying life in Church again (albeit a different one!), I’d love to be able to help others to experience this kind of thing. I guess maybe its a case of our cultural bases being different that gives us different perspecives.
Comment by Mak
6.45 am on 30 Jan 2008
I think that’s awesome. I don’t think it’s JUST culture. What you described is an important part of what churches have to offer the broader community. But more often than not, I see churches start day cares and playgroups and open in church coffee shops to try to make church more attractive but all it ends up doing is serving the church attenders.
I think that when a church allows its space to be used for other things – THAT is a valuable use of the building and THAT I can totally get on board with.
But I don’t see that as the same thing as seeing church as third place or church IN third place or even looking at qualifiers of third place and attempting to apply them to the church structure.
I want to emphasize though that I’m not trying to diminish the value of your experience – thanks to God for the work he did through that church in your life. It just goes to show that God is moving in churches regardless of their affiliation, size, location, structure, etc. And for that I’m grateful
Comment by Mak
6.51 am on 30 Jan 2008
I can’t speak to the UK but a lot of this talk of third space is coming from people from the UK and Australia so I guess I’m confused.
But anyway, yeah, I guess that’s true about the US. We have a history here of Christians being afraid of those outside the Christian world. They’re aliens to us. We don’t know how to “be” when we’re not around other Christians. We have a history of being the very model of propriety and morality and “the world” is corrupt dirty and we don’t know how to deal with that. We’ve been taught that the world will lead you astray so your friends have to be Christians, your kids need to go to christian schools or be homeschooled, you fill your calendar with church activities. Because of this, we have no real sincere connection with those who aren’t Christians. So the idea of “third space” is to say that we as Christians cannot fill our calendar with church activities, we cannot just hang out with other Christians, we have GOT to get OUT. We cannot expect people to come to us, to come into our buildings because they won’t. Non Christians have no interest in coming to church unless they’re already seeking. and on top of it all, we have created a horrible reputation for ourselves that we have to try to remedy.
hope that long winded response clarifies
Reply here
Comment by Paul
10.05 am on 29 Jan 2008
Thanks Debbie, great to have you in the conversation :). I think you make a great point, church can have a visible and active community role.
I’m guessing though it is a church branded space in that you know it’s x baptist church cos of the sign on the door, location and interaction of volunteers but it is not the same as if you went to the baptist church on a sunday – i’m guessing you aren’t made to participate in a church service/christian practices as part of attending the group?
Comment by Laura Anne
12.13 am on 28 Jan 2008
Is church being a 3rd space so bad? I think it’s mine, because to be honest, I have work, I have my flat, and I need church as a place to encourage and be encouraged…that doesn’t mean I’m not going into ‘the world’.
Mainly because my ’spaces’ are not limited to 3. There is at least 4!!! :)
Comment by Jamie Arpin-Ricci
1.59 am on 28 Jan 2008
Laura,
The church as third place is “bad” only insofar as it compromises the role and purpose of the church. For example, third places are by necessity neutral (perhaps the single most important aspect of third places), while churches cannot allows take neutral positions.
No one is suggesting that by going to church one is not going into “the world”. Only that many churches have their only engagement with the world inside the four walls of the church.
To clarify, the concept of third places is not suggesting that there are only three places we interact, but rather that the majority of our lives fall into the (very) generalized and overlapping spheres.
Peace,
Jamie
Comment by Paul
10.23 am on 29 Jan 2008
Hi Laura Anne, i would say that church that acts as a 3rd (or 4th space) in our lives which helps us communally orient our life in going back and serving the other spaces in our lives is not bad at all.
If you like that’s me going back to Luke Bretherton’s point of church being an orginal 3rd place – something that transcends and transforms the values/orientatation of the other 2 chief places that existed before.
For example St Paul in writig to the Ephesian church is completely upturning the Roman household code with husbands loving wives, masters loving slaves and vice versa – the church values rooted in the cruciform christ compelling christians to live differently in the other spaces of their life they inhabit (despite the struggle with the existing values coded into the household or why else did Paul need to write the letter ;)
That is different when church is set up deliberately to use/mimic an existing 3rd space such as a cafe as the form of church – the danger there as i see it is that we see a social platform which has its own value system pre-loaded into it which may be very different from the base values/practices of church.
I’m not saying it can’t be done and the church in that space uses the form and finds ways of subverting the values in the style of the early church – who afterall met in households and subverted the values of them (imagine how you feel when you go and find that the slave who answered the door is the person you are now serving communion too?).
I am saying we just need to be aware of the underlying value systems of all the spaces in our lives.
Comment by Jeff Greathouse
3.41 pm on 28 Jan 2008
I do not think that I like the terms. Jamie, I fully understand what you said in your last comment. However, when I see individuals drawing circles for their lives; I think they decompartenlize their lives and they are not “church” in their other areas.
I would say that we do not bless what is going outside of the walls. Great ministry is occurring in our daily living but we do not put God’s print on it and celebrate. We only celebrate what occurs within the walls.
Comment by Jamie Arpin-Ricci
3.51 pm on 28 Jan 2008
Jeff,
I am not quite sure I understand what you are saying in the first part of you comment. My comments are talking in generalities, not absolutes. I don’t think anyone is “drawing circles”. In fact, I think your closing comments are in line with what I am saying.
Peace,
Jamie
Comment by Jeff Greathouse
4.00 pm on 28 Jan 2008
Jamie:
In my context and community, I see a lot of people “drawing circles”. They have the following:
- work
- family
- neighbors
- extra curricular activities
- church
They do not see them inter-acing or over-lapping. Thus, they compartamentalize their lives. My scare would be that describing church as their 3rd space would promote to leave it “church life” in that circle.
I think that my closing line is in very much agreement and want to end on that for “celebrating”. Maybe, I am still not flushing this out and will have to think and dwell on the concept more.
Thanks.
Comment by Mak
4.37 pm on 28 Jan 2008
I agree Jeff. And I’m not sure I’m comfortable with “church IN third place” either. We have church in public space – Revolution, our community, meets in a downstairs room at a coffee shop. But we don’t confuse that with the third place concept.
Comment by Paul
10.39 am on 29 Jan 2008
It’s a great point Jeff but why do we see our lives like that – what value/reference system drives us to organise ourselves that way? Is it cos we are the mythical quest for a “balanced life” so we end up dividing our life like a grapefruit rather than living life blended like a milkshake? Does the christian life give us different metaphors,stories and models for how we structure our life?
Comment by Mak
6.40 am on 30 Jan 2008
I see my life that way because it’s easier. It takes WORK to “mix it up”. It probably goes all the way back to western philosophy and in America, our “puritanical” history. I’m sure there are deeper issues at work but that’s my impression
Comment by Jamie Arpin-Ricci
4.17 pm on 28 Jan 2008
Hey Jeff,
I understand. I thought you were saying that the comments here were drawing circles. Yes, circles are being drawn as you say. Thanks for the clarification.
Peace,
Jamie
Comment by Laura Anne
5.33 pm on 29 Jan 2008
Jamie and Paul – thanks for your comments…food for thought!
However, after your last comments Paul I’ve now got mental images of me putting my diary, bible and various other symbols of the different components of ‘life’ and putting them in a blender…
With the drawing of circles – I think we can all have the tendency to do that, especially when life gets busy. I think it’s also because of that temptation to have space where ‘we don’t have to be too Christian’.
It’s a daily challenge to remember to live out my beliefs at all times with every part of my life…not just the days I’m at work, or meeting with housegroup.
Mak et al who have said it – I too have concerns about having church IN a third space. I wish I could articulate the reasons why, but the honest answer for the moment is there is something that just doesn’t sit right with me when considering that.
Comment by Paul
6.12 pm on 29 Jan 2008
Ah life in the blender… thanks Laura Anne – well i’m up for an extended happy hour! ;)
Comments are now closed.