I must say, I enjoy reading this blog. It is refreshing to me to hear religious people having (for the most part ;p) civil conversations about such a personal and intense topic. The use of the Scripture impresses me and I have found a new respect for religious conversations/debates regarding Christianity.

It was not my intention to be hostile. I just don’t understand how a woman who takes the Bible literally in the way you do can seek to ‘correct’ men online and isn’t troubled by the passages about women not teaching men. If you’re male then it’s not an issue.

I think you would say you believe that, Paul.
The house of the emergents has not been built on the Lord, but on the pragmatic relativism of a social gospel in which Jesus Christ is NOT central (see my last posting in regards comment by Helen).
so whatever orthodoxy and orthopraxy is administered is IN VAIN. Actually, the movement is leading people BACK in captivity of deeds (emphasis being deeds not creeds)
BACK to the LAW, to WORKS!

As you and I have already established, deeds are an OUTPOURING of our life in Christ, they are
not the GOAL = He is our goal. If one does not even have to believe in Christ as their goal and they do many good deeds,
the Living Word says this: “And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor,
and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”

What is Love. God is Love. Christ in God is Love. If God, if Christ are not the absolute and complete foundation of our faith, the ultimate centralness, then the purpose gets polluted and all the deeds we do to save the world or help mankind profits nothing, according
to the Lord Himself. It has been good to labor in the Lord in these matters. It’s also now come to the place for me that enough has been written that if ‘wisdom is known by her children’ it shall be. My heart is heavy that so many are being led astray and the Lord is being given second place by the imaginations and reimaginations of men.

Helen, please consider that the Lord might have drawn you into all of this with His cords of Love in mercy to deliver you.

After reading just a little of your blog, I felt a
heave of sympathy for you, it seems you’re feeling the weight of a soul whose life is invested in following the latest ‘how to do’ Christianity. That happens inside evanglicalism of mainstream Christianity AND the ‘otherlyness’ of those ‘outside the box’, although
as I’ve said in my prior email, it’s paramount in emergents and on top of that, the emergent movement
has so strayed from and convoluted the truth that I believe there will be many like you not far down the road, whose faith just doesn’t seem to be there anymore. Rather than seeing that the heart and soul of the glory of God has been excised from the emergent social gospel, you prefer to cast the fault generically to ‘christianity’. What you’re feeling is a heavy load to bear, maybe you don’t really understand why because you think it has
something to do with christianity. I’d recommend that you listen to all the links I provided to be refreshed in hearing in true Hope in the Lord who Hears. His sheep hear His voice and will not follow another. Piper is not a hireling, he will lead you to the true Shepherd. The last link I suggested might be beneficial.

Your blog was very helpful to me in another way – by your own words, you revealed the truth of what I have been saying is the danger of emergent. Your comments on McLaren’s book, Everything Must Change, is filled with unmasking the misdirections and deceptions of emergent thought, but I’ll focus in on one for starters. (for clarifying purposes, I’ve put your quotes “”" below)

“”"Later in the book Brian says some things about faith and belief which strike me as very radical. Essentially, he defines faith as believing [Jesus’ words that] we can make the world a better place if we respond to the call to action. He calls this the faith that will save us – in a global sense. He talks about transferring trust from the way of Caesar to the way of Jesus. He uses quintessentially conservative evangelical language in a radically different way. Is he replacing conservative evangelical definitions or simply paralleling them from a global perspective? He doesn’t really say. If he’s replacing them I expect Christians at the conservative end of the spectrum are going to have a huge problem with that.
When I got to the end I found myself thinking something I’m not sure Brian intended (but perhaps he did): this story can be told without Jesus or even God having a central role. It’s simply a story about how if we can believe we can make a difference, we (very likely) can make our world a better place. Lots of people have found a way to believe it’s worth trying who don’t believe in Jesus. I don’t have a problem with people seeing the call to action Brian describes as Jesus’ call to action. I think Brian gives reasonable evidence of that (assuming the Bible is a reliable record of Jesus life and words). But ultimately I think Jesus doesn’t need to be part of this story.
I don’t have a problem with the idea that God could have written a story in which he doesn’t have to be the main character and get all the attention. (In fact, to me, that seems very consistent with Jesus saying he came to serve, not to be served). However, I think a lot of Christians will be rather outraged (i.e. righteously indignant) if they notice this ramification of Brian’s version of the “good news” of Jesus. (Because everything is supposed to be about God’s glory). And in their outrage they will miss the enormous benefit of this story being one that can be told without God, which is: it’s inclusive; it’s one that makes sense to all socially aware people; it’s one that simply says “if you see the problem, let’s work together and do our best to fix it.”. It places no belief litmus test barriers in the way of those who care.
Brian is a follower of Jesus so there’s no need or reason for him to take Jesus out of his own framing story. Here’s a description of Jesus Brian gives in the book which I really like:
He simply let the people know he liked them – and so did God, that he was interested in them, that they didn’t have to be ashamed of who they were. He came close to them in their illnesses, wept with them at the graves of their loved ones, ate at their tables, drank their wine, listened to their words, let himself be injured by their pain—and, although it isn’t recorded in any of the Gospels (canonical or otherwise), I imagine he laughed at some of their jokes too.
In summary, I’m very glad Brian wrote this book. I think it’s an important contribution to the conversation about what following Jesus could and should look like. More importantly, I think it’s likely that many people will take his call to action seriously and that will result in some increase in what people are doing to make the world a better place. Which would be wonderful.”"”

You yourself acknowledge several things that should cause someone who hasn’t been drugged into the dullness of emergence to be alarmed about: in your words:

“‘Is he replacing conservative evangelical definitions or simply paralleling them from a global perspective? He doesn’t really say”‘ — You are correct, Helen, McLaren doesn’t really SAY what he means (trademade of emergents – the truth is always questioned and one is left really never knowing answers, except the (false) directive that we were put on earth to ‘make it a better place’) – who told McLaren that? Jesus never said that. He said HE, HIMSELF, came to a lost and dying world to save sinners and give life and glorify His Father. Mclaren swims around in that cloud of unknowing again and drags you with him. I addressed this is my earlier postings.

Again, your quote:

“”"When I got to the end I found myself thinking something I’m not sure Brian intended (but perhaps he did): this story can be told without Jesus or even God having a central role. It’s simply a story about how if we can believe we can make a difference, we (very likely) can make our world a better place. Lots of people have found a way to believe it’s worth trying who don’t believe in Jesus. “”"

Again, you acknowledge you’re not sure what Brian’s intentions are. AND you also confirmed my understandingal postings that in the emergent verbage —- Jesus or even God, are oftentimes not even IN the conversation of their lofty saving the world endeavors. Trademark in emergent movement of at least some of the major rethinkers, reimaginers, reinventers in the emergent movement. Your intention was not to find fault with emergent, but you did exactly that inadvertently.

Again, your quote:

“”"I don’t have a problem with the idea that God could have written a story in which he doesn’t have to be the main character and get all the attention. (In fact, to me, that seems very consistent with Jesus saying he came to serve, not to be served). However, I think a lot of Christians will be rather outraged (i.e. righteously indignant) if they notice this ramification of Brian’s version of the “good news” of Jesus. (Because everything is supposed to be about God’s glory). And in their outrage they will miss the enormous benefit of this story being one that can be told without God, which is: it’s inclusive; it’s one that makes sense to all socially aware people; it’s one that simply says “if you see the problem, let’s work together and do our best to fix it.”. It places no belief litmus test barriers in the way of those who care.”"”

Helen, either you are not a true follower of Christ or you have heard ‘another gospel’. If you seriously think that God doesn’t need to be the main character and get all the attention, then you missed the entire focus of Christ Himself! Despite your disdain, He was EXACTLY all about His Father’s business ! Have you read the scriptures at all? I’m sorry to sound so emphatic, but you’re already seriously questioning your own spiritual condition, so it’s best to be forthright with you. If you are angered at what I say, that’s understandable – the truth of the gospel angered a lot of folks in Christ’s day also. I hear the words of Christ at this moment for you – “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling” This Christ who you feel doesn’t really need to be mentioned, the Name above all Names….and that’s OKAY with you? ! As far as McLaren, he reflects by his own words (and lack of) who his father is.

Again, in your words:

“Brian is a follower of Jesus so there’s no need or reason for him to take Jesus out of his own framing story”

Well, there would be no need for Brian to take Jesus out of his own framing story IF he were a follower of Jesus, Helen. Who is his father?
Honestly, if you can’t , just by these few paragraphs that I’ve cut from your own blog, in your own words, see the inconsistencies and vagueness of emergent ‘leader’ McLaren , then you are in danger of losing your faith altogether and what a loss that would be!

“For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward. And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.” (Mark 9:41-50)

Drink, Helen, at the waters of Life, the fount that will not leave you in the condition that you are in now. Cut off and out anything that is leading you away from Christ. His Worth is uncomparable! I count it all joy lead you to the Truth.