Comments on: Rediscovering my churchianity – a recant :)

By: Paul

Paul — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:10:35 +0000

thanks leslie, great list – it makes me wonder…

i wonder how often our feelings self determine against us? does feeling that God is not there actually mean that God isn’t there? And if he is withholding himself i wonder if we ever ask why, or just decide to take our toys away :)

what do you or anyone else think?

By: Leslie Nipps

Leslie Nipps — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:16:11 +0000

What helps me not stay stuck?

* Trying new things–like visiting churches–even if I don’t feel like it.
* Keeping in mind that I’ve changed how I’ve seen things in the past, and probably will again in the future.
* Praying in openness to a God that is incapable of being pinned down.
* Staying in creative conversation with friends and folk like yourselves.
* Be willing not to be stuck.
* Wanting to not be stuck.
* Staying grounded in some humility which reminds me that I don’t know it all now, and any way in which I am feeling/thinking something very strongly right now–like Church sucks–further work of the Spirit is likely to transform.

Peace, Leslie

By: Helen

Helen — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:55:41 +0000

Thanks for clarifying, Jason. I think I like engaging with Christians because I relate to ‘being on mission’ in a big-picture sense. I want to make the world a better place just as much as I did when I was a Christian. And because…I just like talking to people I guess :) – I’m curious about people who are different from me.

I could imagine a person who wanted to be an atheist posting on atheist blogs for that reason. I’ve seen other reasons more often – the main ones I’ve seen are, trying to convert atheists or win intellectual arguments with them. Less often I see people who seem like me i.e. interested to understand other people better, not especially trying to pull them over to where I’m at or looking to go where they are at.

By: Jason

Jason — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:59:29 +0000

Hi Helen, I don’t think anyone wanted or intended you to feel as if you had crossed over a line, and to correlate that to your previous church experience. I think we are genuinely interested as to why someone who considers themselves almost an atheists engages in discussions with Christians at the level you do, i.e are you wanting to find faith again, are you happy with your own faith construction, and the parallels with a christian writing on an atheists blog (not something I’d want to do, as I don’t want to be an atheist).

So just interested, and I hope you can see why we might be interested in asking, and not see that as something personal. Just friends asking!

Love, jason

By: Helen

Helen — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:45:47 +0000

Thanks Rick. I like the open set approach better. I thought that was the approach of the Emergent/emerging church. But I could be wrong.

By: Marc

Marc — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:37:50 +0000

and Paul:)

By: Marc

Marc — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:35:44 +0000

I just want to see Jason in that dress:)

By: Rick Cruse

Rick Cruse — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:58:22 +0000

Helen, your comment about Jesus being team-less brings to mind the passage where Jesus comments on the fact that he (and John the Baptist) was “damned if he did” and damned if he didn’t”:

“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to other children, saying, ‘We played the flute for you and you did not dance; we sang a dirge and you did not mourn.’ For John came neither eating or drinking and they say he has a demon. The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax gatherers and sinners. Yet wisdom is vindicated by ALL her children.’”

Are we speaking of the church/kingdom as a ‘closed set,’ i.e., clear lines which delineate who is in and who is out, or as an open set, i.e., looking at the direction people are moving, the questions they are asking, and the quality of their lives? If we are an open set, then some “almost” Christians, some who self-identify as not-Christians may well be closer to the Kingdom than many who profess the correct beliefs but struggle with heart issues.

By: Helen

Helen — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:22:15 +0000

Paul feel free to tease me anytime. And I always feel honored when Jason talks to me or asks me questions.

The reason I play at both ends is, whichever end I’m at, if I think I can help I try to. I suppose it makes sense that that could confuse people whose goal is for their team to win the game. They would wonder if I have a hidden agenda; am I going to take the ball and pass it to the other team? Maybe I do have a hidden agenda – but if so it’s also hidden from me :)

I see Jesus as essentially ‘teamless’ since he kept playing for the ‘wrong’ team whenever people defined teams (like when he went to Zaccheus’ house). If I were to stop playing at both ends I would be following him less.

By: Helen

Helen — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:13:30 +0000

Paul, right – I think Jesus’ comment is perfect – it means “you’re doing great!” but it also means “keep going!” Very neat way of affirming someone, without at the same time risking leading them into a false sense of complacency which would cause them to do less well in future.

(Almost atheists can learn principles of how to affirm people well from statements like that)