Rediscovering my churchianity – a recant :)
21 Jun 2007
I have been known on the very pages of this blog to say that i don’t get very much out of going to church. Well as all good heretics i’d like to recant and say that almost a year on from when i wrote my observations i’m starting to appreciate church in a whole new way…
I know that church has its problems, flaws, drawbacks, limitations and general crap moments, i’ve been going to church for over 30 yrs, but rather than dwell on those i’d like to suggest some reasons why i am really appreciating it and i’d like to hear from you too about what you think is right/good/fun/engaging about the church in your own context…
Last year we moved house, we did so for a whole variety of reasons but for me chief among those was finding somewhere i thought would help my wife’s flagging christian faith. So before we decided on where we were going to move too we checked out and pretty much decidied on the church we’d like to go – thanks to sermon podcasts, websites and a couple of sneaky back row visits we made our church choice on and then eventually moved.
At this point i feel like the king of church consumption on the one hand – conducting market research to find the church i wanted and then moving to the area to be near it. On the other hand i didn’t have much expectation of a case of meet the new church same as the old church. I think i had pretty much settled for church being somewhere to go which would benefit my wife and kids and therefore i would contribute to it as part of it as i always had but really it was at best a means to an end.
So what have i found helpful about church in the last yr that has prompted this recant…
1. teaching - when i’ve been in a church environment in which i’ve not agreed with the teaching it was fun to critique my thoughts and challenge myself as to whether i was just being disagreeable and what i really thought. Having been in a teaching environment for the last yr where i have found myself not only agreeing with much that is taught but finding that actually leads to me wanting to change, to discovering new ways of seeing God, myself, the world and doing something different in response. There is something very honest and very relevant about Jason Clark’s teaching, where he holds a mirror up to how we are rather than who we like to think we are – which reminds me of a lot of Eddie Izzard but without the dress ;). [you can hear Eddie, i mean Jason's talks here]
2. Rhythm – I’ve not really noticed before as to how helpful a regular rhythm it is to go to church. Church for me before has always been about experience – to learn something or to encounter God, to be prayed for, to socialise etc. These are all good things but most helpful is the space i have at least once a week in my otherwise me dominated routine to go and do something that doesn’t immediately give me a buzz. To have space and time to spend orientating my life around God is a precious gift and to do that in a communal setting and here about how God is doing things in the lives of others and what others are doing for God just strengthens that space.
3. Service I’ve always helped out at all the churches i’ve been too – for me that’s part of the deal of going along is to get involved. i’ve not quite realsied how serving others is a spiritual practice which means i’m more likely to be generous/kind/thoughtful/ in moments outside of church. What i’ve found most encouraging is connecting how the things i do help other people, i guess its not twigged before, service was a duty and now it feels more like a pleasure.
4. Mission – i’m also not so hung up doing church things at the expense of ‘mission’ as i’ve started to realise that what i do helps serve the mission of the church – i think before i’ve got stuck on mission being about individuals connecting with people/places and not really ever thought about how church helps in that process. Being able to have church which acts as a place to gather, share, practice, learn, together aids missionary life. Without somewhere to gather and do life together i seriously believe the mission of God’s people starts to flag. Church is not just about sunday, it’s one part of the life of the church but that life is helped by gathering in small and large groups to share God’s story with each other and support and encourage each other to live out a christian life.
So what do you find helpful/encouraging about church?
Tagged: Church
61 comments
Trackback
Comment by Makeesha
7.55 pm on 21 Jun 2007
good stuff :)
I have always liked teaching, corporate singing and prayer (worship) and the community component to every church we’ve been a part of. I’ve had moments of enjoying certain programs and getting a lot out of them and most of the churches i’ve been a part of have done at least a small amount of service to the broader community.
lots of things to love about any church :)
Comment by Paul
11.27 pm on 21 Jun 2007
thanks Mak, yes i think you’re right, lots of things to love and in my rush to reform i often forget about the many good bits :)
Comment by Makeesha
1.10 am on 22 Jun 2007
I think I tend to find the good bits overwhelmed by the horribly bad ones ;)
Comment by Paul
12.58 pm on 22 Jun 2007
yes it is difficult not to get depressed, leading in an environment like the church where you get to see the worst of people is never fun… then again in your fledgling community there must be people and activities which you are delighted by and so also are prililedged to see the best of people as well?
Comment by Makeesha
2.23 pm on 22 Jun 2007
I have very little negative to say about Revolution :) Which is why I was speaking in the past tense primarily
Comment by Paul
4.08 pm on 22 Jun 2007
thanks Mak – what postives are you enjoying/experiencing at the moment? viva la revolution :)
Comments won’t nest below this level.
Comment by Makeesha
3.18 am on 23 Jun 2007
we don’t have programs to maintain so we have a lot of freedom in our daily lives to live the mission, there’s a lot of transparency and honesty which allows a really neat “deep church” experience. We hang out together but not exclusively together, we’re connecting with people of other traditions to serve our local community (the catholic mission serving the homeless, the episcopal church for a variety of things), we’re learning and growing together and seeing fruit in our lives, we have a guy going to Madagascar to serve in a counseling capacity to train therapists and work with the missionaries, there’s discipleship and accountability in a very natural and organic way….
we also struggle with stagnation, turning inward, and a few other little things that maturity will work out but all in all it’s been a great time.
Comment by Paul
9.05 am on 23 Jun 2007
Thanks Mak, a lot of good things to celebrate or at least smile about :)
It’s great what a catalyst you guys are being!
Reply here
Comment by Leslie
6.31 am on 22 Jun 2007
What I hear in your post, Jason, is that there are seasons in our relationship to community, Church, God, spiritual practice, and whatnot. I’d tend to judge the times you couldn’t deal with Church less harshly than you do; they were what they were, with the wisdom, path, and learning they offered. Now, you are in a different moment with God and God’s people. Another wisdom moment. I find myself right now hugely struggling with Church and its flaws. The Church needs our critique, needs our unwillingness to make peace with hypocrisy, injustice, and sheer boredom. AND it needs us to be compassionate, humble, grateful. Few humans can do it all at once, so we cycle and “season.” Each has wisdom. The key is not getting stuck in one mode, but continually moving forward into the fuller vision of God. Thank you for sharing your growth in the Spirit. Peace – L
Comment by Jason
9.28 am on 22 Jun 2007
Hi Leslie, this post was by Paul Mayers, not me! Just thought I’d make that clearer for everyone. Thanks, Jason (great comment)
Comment by Paul
1.01 pm on 22 Jun 2007
Thanks Leslie, i’m sorry for your pain at the moment. I think your comment is very helpful in reminding us of the something of the seasonality of our experience, so thank you.
It also reminds me that part of being in a church community is to experience hope and encouragement where others are experiencing a better season then the one we are having.
What have you found helpful in not getting stuck in one mode?
Comment by Leslie Nipps
11.16 pm on 25 Jun 2007
What helps me not stay stuck?
* Trying new things–like visiting churches–even if I don’t feel like it.
* Keeping in mind that I’ve changed how I’ve seen things in the past, and probably will again in the future.
* Praying in openness to a God that is incapable of being pinned down.
* Staying in creative conversation with friends and folk like yourselves.
* Be willing not to be stuck.
* Wanting to not be stuck.
* Staying grounded in some humility which reminds me that I don’t know it all now, and any way in which I am feeling/thinking something very strongly right now–like Church sucks–further work of the Spirit is likely to transform.
Peace, Leslie
Comment by Paul
7.10 pm on 26 Jun 2007
thanks leslie, great list – it makes me wonder…
i wonder how often our feelings self determine against us? does feeling that God is not there actually mean that God isn’t there? And if he is withholding himself i wonder if we ever ask why, or just decide to take our toys away :)
what do you or anyone else think?
Comment by Helen
7.10 pm on 22 Jun 2007
Leslie, I think we each have to decide if the struggle is good for us or not: if so we persevere; if not we bow out (at least for a while).
I’m on indefinite leave from church but I respect other peoples’ choices to be involved.
Comment by Rick Cruse
12.52 pm on 22 Jun 2007
I am greatly encouraged by your post, Paul, as well as by the comments made. In the past month I have made a huge leap, leaving behind 23 years of working “alongside” local churches and jumping with both feet (and the rest of my body, together with my wife’s) into a local community of believers. To be even more candid, I have stepped into this Canadian Maritime community as pastor. Should be a very interesting transition, one I am looking forward to with trepidation and great excitement. Time to see if all the good things I have been learning can actually be brought to bear, Lord willing and by His Spirit.
Comment by Paul
1.02 pm on 22 Jun 2007
Thanks Rick. It sounds an exciting adventure and I hope you find your sea legs quickly :)
Comment by Helen
7.12 pm on 22 Jun 2007
Paul, I’m happy for you that church has become more of a positive meaningful experience.
I don’t see myself going back but I have no problem with other people going. It makes Sunday morning a nice unbusy time to do other stuff ;-) (at least in the US where most people still go to church)
Comment by Paul
9.00 am on 23 Jun 2007
Thanks Helen, never ever, ever going back? Or is that just on a sunday ;)
Comment by Helen
6.09 pm on 23 Jun 2007
Hi Paul, at the moment I can’t imagine anything convincing me to go back. But that doesn’t mean it could never happen.
It doesn’t seem likely since church is not for people who are almost atheists (unless you include unitarian churches, which aren’t about Jesus, so I’m guessing you probably don’t)
Comment by simone
7.28 pm on 23 Jun 2007
just curiousity really, would you describe yourself as ‘nearly atheist’ or have I misunderstod your comment? don’t feel you need to amswer if you think I’m being nosy! ;-)
Comment by Helen
8.52 pm on 23 Jun 2007
Hi Simone, I do sometimes refer to myself as almost an atheist and if I was (were) in England I’d say “nearly” rather than “almost”. (I find all those small linguistic variations fascinating :))
Someone else called me that last year and I quite liked it so I’ve been using it since then.
Comments won’t nest below this level.
Reply here
Comment by Paul
8.06 am on 24 Jun 2007
lol, i’m curious Helen, as someone who is almost a christian, why you would think church is not for people who are almost athethiests?
Comment by simone
10.03 am on 24 Jun 2007
I’m confused?! ;-)
Comments won’t nest below this level.
Comment by Paul
10.41 am on 24 Jun 2007
what’s confusing you, simone? :)
Reply here
Comment by Helen
11.05 am on 24 Jun 2007
Church is not for me because I don’t like to do what people do at church like: worship God, say “I believe such and such” about God and read the Bible.
Comments won’t nest below this level.
Comment by simone
2.19 pm on 24 Jun 2007
But isn’t that what you do when you’re a Christian? If you don’t worship God, surely you don’t believe in Him, therefore why feel it is a big issue you don’t go to church? In fact, why are you on here discussing God?
Comment by Helen
2.51 pm on 24 Jun 2007
I think you wrote this before you read my article.
I don’t not believe in God – I don’t know whether God is real or not.
It’s hard to have a relationship with someone you don’t know is real. In the same way it would be hard to have a relationship with a spouse who often wasn’t there and you couldn’t figure out if they had a legitimate excuse or were having an affair with someone else.
Reply here
Comment by simone
8.21 pm on 22 Jun 2007
Going to church makes me long for heaven, where everything is perfect, there will be no frustrations with the people of God, just pure worshipping our Saviour Jesus.
Honestly, I get fed up with people complaining about church, isn’t the saying; “If I was to go to a perfect church I would spoil it”? We are all sinners, saved by grace, let’s show that in the way we attend church.
Comment by Paul
8.58 am on 23 Jun 2007
Thanks Simone, yes that is a healthy reminder that there is no such thing as the perfect church, and if there was we wouldn’t get in ;).
I’m intrigued to hear more about how you model being a sinner saved by grace in the way you attend church, would you mind sharing more about what that looks like for you?
Comment by simone
11.13 am on 23 Jun 2007
I guess the way I view it is that we’re a in this world together trying to share Jesus. In my Church people are very inward looking, safe in their ‘holy huddle’ and very ’scared’ of telling others. This could be a result of lots of things; them not being sure of who Jesus is, past experiences of evangelism, etc, etc. I get very frustrated with them, but am constantly reminded that Jesus loves them too, and may be He wants to use me to work with them, patiently encouraging them and making sure their relationship with jesus is so good that they can’t help telling others.
Jesus came to earth to GIVE HIS LIFE for us. I am saved because he gave HIS LIFE for me! The least I can do is give my WHOLE life to the friends I meet, inside and outside of Church to grow His Kingdom. I get frustrated, yes, I have been hurt A LOT by ‘Christians’. Jesus hurt more, so I really can’t complain, I have to just get on with the mission of maing disciples.
I just can’t bear thinking about leavign the church, whatever, or however it makes me feel. I go for Jesus, to get fed, to feed, to disciple but most of all, to worship Him.
Comment by Rick
12.25 pm on 23 Jun 2007
Simone, I just became the pastor of a small church. I’d love to you (or someone like you) in my community of believers! May grace be yours in abundance today to empower your obedience to Jesus.
Comment by Rick
3.18 pm on 23 Jun 2007
Oops, I’d love to HAVE you as part of our community
Comments won’t nest below this level.
Comment by simone
3.28 pm on 23 Jun 2007
Thank you ;-) May God bless you in your new challenge! Let’s bring more people into His Kingdom! Rock on!!!
Reply here
Comment by Helen
2.01 pm on 23 Jun 2007
Simone, have you thought about looking for another church with people more like you in, who could make you feel less alone?
In a situation like yours I would continually struggle against the temptation to feel superior to other people there, because I was not so limited by fears as they were. Which would be hard. Plus I would wish I had people I could look up to as mentors, further down the road than I was, rather than feeling I have to drag everyone else along.
I would be looking for a more balanced situation, where I felt I both had mentors and could mentor other people.
(If I went to church)
Comment by simone
3.25 pm on 23 Jun 2007
I don’t feel alone. I don’t feel superior either. Tim (my husband) and I run a small group together. Amongst others, 2 ladies in our group have just become Christians. I learn from them, they learn from me, it’s how God’s family works (or should work ! ;-) I learn from my kids, they learn from me. It’s a privileged to know what my gifts are and to share them, with humility.
Of course, I’m not perfect (although nearly?? Only kidding….!) so I constantly seek for people to teach me, in fact, there is some great teachng on the net, which I regularly listen to!
Also, if I were to find a church with more people like me, wouldn’t that just isolate us? The whole point of going to Church is to be around people with different gifts, enjoying the riches of God’s people, even though we, as a church, are riddled with sin!
Comments won’t nest below this level.
Comment by Paul
5.54 pm on 23 Jun 2007
that reminds me of something i read once, that if we surround ourselves with people who think, talk, act like us – we haven’t got community we’ve got clique…
One of the amazing things about the NT story is the break down of social structures of the day – how communities of koinonia sprung up where so many diverse people were able to share together and help each other…
Comment by Helen
6.05 pm on 23 Jun 2007
Hi Simone,
Sorry if I misconstrued you as less happy than you are with your current church/small group set up.
I agree that going to church with everyone like you isn’t necessarily a good thing. That wasn’t what I meant so much as, some people like you, some to look up to and some to help along.
Comment by simone
7.37 pm on 23 Jun 2007
I think being happy in a church setting is a difficult one. I am less than perfectly happy with the people in the church, i.e the frustration etc. I am perfectly happy in that it is a place where I can go and worship and serve Jesus. It feels like a home, and as in any home, there are differences/frustrations/anger etc.
Also, people like me or some I can look up to is also a difficult one. I am not trying to be difficult because I know what you mean, but I do draw strength from Jesus first, in devotions as well as Bible reading. I feel confident in who I am because He has made me that way. He has also made me to be relational so I do need those kinds of relationships. I draw strength from new Christians most of the time! Their energy is fresh and makes me keep my eyes focussed on Jesus, not the niggly, annoying frustrations.
Also, I feel I am called to be a leader. This doesn’t make me superior, the most important characteristic of a leader is humility BUT it is often a lonely experience because I see things from a different persective than some people (the clique, comfortable, holy huddle people mainly)which is fine.
Reply here
Comment by Helen
9.17 pm on 23 Jun 2007
The nesting ran out so I’ll reply here :)
Simone wrote: Also, people like me or some I can look up to is also a difficult one. I am not trying to be difficult because I know what you mean, but I do draw strength from Jesus first, in devotions as well as Bible reading. I feel confident in who I am because He has made me that way. He has also made me to be relational so I do need those kinds of relationships. I draw strength from new Christians most of the time! Their energy is fresh and makes me keep my eyes focussed on Jesus, not the niggly, annoying frustrations.
Also, I feel I am called to be a leader. This doesn’t make me superior, the most important characteristic of a leader is humility BUT it is often a lonely experience because I see things from a different persective than some people (the clique, comfortable, holy huddle people mainly)which is fine.
Yes, this was what I sensed about you.
I read an interesting comment a few years ago by Larry Crabb about leadership being a lonely thing.
I don’t know if you’d read Anne Rice’s book Jesus is Lord – because it’s a novel about Jesus – I did and was quite moved by how sensitively she portrayed Jesus in the years when he was first realizing he was different from other children and adults. She brought out the loneliness of being who he was very well, I thought.
So he understands that loneliness very well.
I understand if you don’t have a human to look up to. Sometimes we just don’t have a person like that in our lives.
Are you able to receive as well as give? (You sound like a very giving person – which is commendable of course) Do you give other people the opportunity to give to you, by making your needs known to them? I think it’s a good exercise in humility to do that; plus it enables other people to practice being givers too.
The reason I’m asking is, some leaders seem only able to give and that perpetuates their loneliness because it sets them apart more than necessary from other people. When we admit our needs and ask for help it shows other people we are like them and helps them come closer to us. I feel sad when I see leaders who have isolated themselves because they don’t know how to receive as well as to give. Not that you’re one of them. I’m just saying that’s what I’ve seen.
Comment by simone
10.13 am on 24 Jun 2007
I don’t feel lonely, just may be alone, if you see what I mean? First of all I share this call with my husband, so we are always talking together, learning together, from each other as well as other people.
Like I said earlier, I draw strength from new christians, my kids, etc.
I’ve thought a bit about Jesus feeling lonely and I don’t think He was. He probably felt frustrated with his friends, that they didn’t quite get him, but He loved them so much and was so patient with them, He came to earth to save them, He gave all to be with them so I do think they were proper close friends! Also, His relationship with Father God was so strong.
I just feel church is about all these struggles and pleasures, I don’t get why you left, how do you get fed and nurtured?
Comment by Helen
11.13 am on 24 Jun 2007
Hi Simone,
We can have different opinions on whether Jesus was lonely.
If you like, you can read about why I left here: Why I don’t go to church any more
I’m not sure how to answer the question about how I get fed and nurtured. The same way everyone else does who doesn’t go to church, I think.
Comment by simone
2.38 pm on 24 Jun 2007
I read your article. I respect the way you’ve thought about what to believe, etc. It is your choice to believe in God or not. I do believe in God and feel that, if He is a worthwhile God to believe in, He must be bigger than me, else He would just be like me. Because He is bigger than me, I don’t understand all that He does or lets happen. In the Bible it says that He is a good God, I believe Him.
Quite frankly, if you’ve made the decision to not beleive in Him, stop commenting on how we, as Christians, need to live and what to think. I NEVER tell a non-christian how to behave UNLESS they are willing to believe in Jesus, accpet Him and follow Him. If they (you?) choose not to believe in God I don’t expect you to live according to what the Bible says, I believe you can’t DO what the Bible says unless you’ve got the help of The Spirit anyway.
Jesus loves you. He longs for you to be his friend, that’s all I have got to say to you! If I was able to meet with you, I would, I would have a coffee and chat about God! ;-)
Comment by Helen
2.48 pm on 24 Jun 2007
Simone wrote: Quite frankly, if you’ve made the decision to not beleive in Him, stop commenting on how we, as Christians, need to live and what to think. I NEVER tell a non-christian how to behave UNLESS they are willing to believe in Jesus, accpet Him and follow Him. If they (you?) choose not to believe in God I don’t expect you to live according to what the Bible says, I believe you can’t DO what the Bible says unless you’ve got the help of The Spirit anyway.
Simone, don’t I have every right to read the gospels and have an opinion on whether Christians are doing what Jesus would do?
I don’t tell people how to behave; yes, I make suggestions and give advice. You can ignore it if you like.
Why do you think most people assume I’m a Christian unless I say I’m not? Why don’t my posts cry out to them “I don’t have the illumination of the Holy Spirit”?
Shouldn’t it be obvious?
Why didn’t you realize I wasn’t a Christian right away? Why didn’t you notice?
I’m not trying to be rude – these are serious questions I’ve been wondering about for over five years now.
If people think I am a Christian anyway I may as well participate in their conversations – that’s how it seems to me.
Besides – as best I know, there’s no rule here “please do not post unless you are a Christian”.
If you think there should be you can ask Jason and Paul to implement one.
Comment by Paul
6.43 pm on 24 Jun 2007
if we had a a christian posting rule then all all us ‘nearly christians’ wouldn’t be able to post either, that would be like turkeys voting for christmas :)
Even if we could make such a rule, how would we police it? Somehow we’d have to build in a doctrinal questionnaire as well as email address etc – maybe wordpress has a God spam plug-in? And what if going to church isn’t really the measure of what it is to be a christian, what if people like helen are more christian in God’s eyes then people like me [hmmm there might not even be a might be in this example]…
So whilst we have a rule about being polite etc there’s no rule on how christian or not to post here. The best i can offer is that we don’t have to agree on the comments made – i find it can be very useful to have comments from a wide variety of people, hopefully they help me with my blind spots and vice versa…
Comment by simone
10.13 am on 25 Jun 2007
wooooh, I never said you couldn’t comment on this post!! Feel free, I am commenting aren’t I!
All I’m saying is that if you don’t follow the Jesus I follow, or worship the God I worship ( Not saying you should or shouldn’t, free will and all that) than how can we tell each other what we should or shouldn’t believe/say/live? We’ve totally different values/principles and motivations for the stuff that we do or don’t do.
Don’t you either believe Jesus died for your sins or not? Don’t you either believe n the Chrsitian God or not?
Comment by Helen
10.13 pm on 24 Jun 2007
Paul, have you noticed how Jesus went with “you’re nearly there” as high praise, one time:
Mark 12:34 (NIV) When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
Comment by Jason
6.42 am on 25 Jun 2007
I’m coming late to this Helen, so forgive me if I have missed the flow of the threads. I hear Simone asking why if you are agnostic, and have chosen not to follow Jesus in mission with Christians (church) do you talk about church, and interact with Christians telling them why you have left church.
If there was a parallel, wouldn’t that be like an ex atheist, posting on atheists blogs about how they had found faith and mission with Christians.
You qoute Mark12:34 is it because you want to be close to Jesus and the Kindom and His mission, or are you very happy being an ex christian/almost atheist?
I know those are hard direct questions, but I hope we know each other well enough for me to ask, I am curious :-)? Love, Jason
Comment by Paul
7.36 am on 25 Jun 2007
that’s a great question Jase, ty. And welcome to the conversation :)
Comment by Helen
11.25 am on 25 Jun 2007
Hi Jason, if I have come across as trying to dissuade other people from going to church I apologize – that was not my intent.
I don’t have a ‘master strategy’, beyond having interesting conversations and being respectful of others. I sometimes join in conversations I find interesting and I post what comes to mind (unless I’m angry – then I try not to). If people ask me questions I try to answer them. If a Christian says something that reminds me of something Jesus said I mention that – hence my reference to Mark 12:34.
“[do] you want to be close to Jesus and the Kindom and His mission, or are you very happy being an ex christian/almost atheist?” For me this isn’t an either/or. I find the stories of Jesus interesting and they challenge me. My value system overlaps a lot with the value systems of at least some Christians, so there is shared mission there. Yes I am happy being an almost atheist – happy but challenged continually to live up to the values I say are mine.
In my experience most atheists are open to having Christians (including ex atheists) join their online conversation who are willing to listen and thoughtfully engage. Many atheists often are interested to hear why Christians have made other choices than they are making, as long as Christians are able to share about their choices without asserting that they are right and atheists are wrong.
Anyway, it seems like I am perceived as contributing negatively to this particular conversation. (I suspect this would happen in church too, if I were honest there, which is one reason I am reluctant to go back)
Paul, I’m sorry if I got your discussion off-track and upset people.
I’m not exactly sure what line I crossed – I certainly didn’t do it intentionally. Nevertheless I will try not to cross it again because I’m not here to be disruptive or offensive.
Comment by Paul
11.53 am on 25 Jun 2007
thanks helen, for answering – I wouldn’t worry too much, i don’t think it’s a case of people getting upset more a case of people not understanding – it’s quite a hard concept for people to get their heads around, some one who intentionally labels themselves in a way, that many christians don’t know what to do with/deal with, lol. In that sense i like it when you do so cos a) it upsets the labels box; b) i get to play with that and c) i get to tease you :)
I know the whole blog thang is hard to convey emotional response, personally i suck at getting good tone, but i’m not reading any of the comments as shut up helen more – help us deal with where you are coming from and why you still want to be involved in this sort of conversation. If that makes sense?
Jase likes pushing back a lil, so i’d be honoured if i were you that he’s given you a nudge, maybe he’s just playing with the label too and saying does an almost atheist not also have some almost christian leanings as well and can you really play at both ends of the field – well that’s how i read it anywho :) But i’ll leave it to Mr Clark to speak for himself :).
Comment by Helen
12.22 pm on 25 Jun 2007
Paul feel free to tease me anytime. And I always feel honored when Jason talks to me or asks me questions.
The reason I play at both ends is, whichever end I’m at, if I think I can help I try to. I suppose it makes sense that that could confuse people whose goal is for their team to win the game. They would wonder if I have a hidden agenda; am I going to take the ball and pass it to the other team? Maybe I do have a hidden agenda – but if so it’s also hidden from me :)
I see Jesus as essentially ‘teamless’ since he kept playing for the ‘wrong’ team whenever people defined teams (like when he went to Zaccheus’ house). If I were to stop playing at both ends I would be following him less.
Comments won’t nest below this level.
Comment by Rick Cruse
1.58 pm on 25 Jun 2007
Helen, your comment about Jesus being team-less brings to mind the passage where Jesus comments on the fact that he (and John the Baptist) was “damned if he did” and damned if he didn’t”:
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to other children, saying, ‘We played the flute for you and you did not dance; we sang a dirge and you did not mourn.’ For John came neither eating or drinking and they say he has a demon. The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax gatherers and sinners. Yet wisdom is vindicated by ALL her children.’”
Are we speaking of the church/kingdom as a ‘closed set,’ i.e., clear lines which delineate who is in and who is out, or as an open set, i.e., looking at the direction people are moving, the questions they are asking, and the quality of their lives? If we are an open set, then some “almost” Christians, some who self-identify as not-Christians may well be closer to the Kingdom than many who profess the correct beliefs but struggle with heart issues.
Comment by Helen
3.45 pm on 25 Jun 2007
Thanks Rick. I like the open set approach better. I thought that was the approach of the Emergent/emerging church. But I could be wrong.
Reply here
Comment by Jason
5.59 pm on 25 Jun 2007
Hi Helen, I don’t think anyone wanted or intended you to feel as if you had crossed over a line, and to correlate that to your previous church experience. I think we are genuinely interested as to why someone who considers themselves almost an atheists engages in discussions with Christians at the level you do, i.e are you wanting to find faith again, are you happy with your own faith construction, and the parallels with a christian writing on an atheists blog (not something I’d want to do, as I don’t want to be an atheist).
So just interested, and I hope you can see why we might be interested in asking, and not see that as something personal. Just friends asking!
Love, jason
Comment by Helen
6.55 pm on 25 Jun 2007
Thanks for clarifying, Jason. I think I like engaging with Christians because I relate to ‘being on mission’ in a big-picture sense. I want to make the world a better place just as much as I did when I was a Christian. And because…I just like talking to people I guess :) – I’m curious about people who are different from me.
I could imagine a person who wanted to be an atheist posting on atheist blogs for that reason. I’ve seen other reasons more often – the main ones I’ve seen are, trying to convert atheists or win intellectual arguments with them. Less often I see people who seem like me i.e. interested to understand other people better, not especially trying to pull them over to where I’m at or looking to go where they are at.
Comments won’t nest below this level.
Reply here
Comment by Paul
11.27 am on 25 Jun 2007
thanks helen, I like that comment of Jesus.
Personally, i think seeking the kingdom in one sense is active and ongoing – that it is about active choice and ongoing decision to submit ‘my’ kingdon into God’s kingdom – in that sense i am always nearly there rather than having arrived :)
Comment by Helen
12.13 pm on 25 Jun 2007
Paul, right – I think Jesus’ comment is perfect – it means “you’re doing great!” but it also means “keep going!” Very neat way of affirming someone, without at the same time risking leading them into a false sense of complacency which would cause them to do less well in future.
(Almost atheists can learn principles of how to affirm people well from statements like that)
Comment by Bryan Riley
6.42 am on 25 Jun 2007
Does anyone else sometimes feel less edified after reading the comments to a good post?
Good post, Paul. I can’t say I know all the reasons I still “go to church,” as they say… even when I know that church is something different than what we’ve created it to be in many instances in our societies. But I do know that I feel called to do so and that I am often encouraged and taught by doing so.
For example, just yesterday, I was greatly encouraged by a discussion of what “repent” means. The pastor equated repent with being teachable. Meta and noos together showing an attitude of getting your mind alongside God’s mind and letting them walk together. Jesus modeled it, both in how He followed the Father and how He discipled.
Comment by Paul
7.42 am on 25 Jun 2007
Thanks Bryan, that’s a great example of church and how it can help and challenge us…
Comment by Marc
3.35 pm on 25 Jun 2007
I just want to see Jason in that dress:)
Comment by Marc
3.37 pm on 25 Jun 2007
and Paul:)
Comments are now closed.