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	<title>Comments on: New Earth or Renewed&#160;Earth?</title>
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		<title>By: maz</title>
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		<dc:creator>maz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>sorry, just noticed, John Stott IS in there...that must be what I was remembering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sorry, just noticed, John Stott IS in there&#8230;that must be what I was remembering.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: maz</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F06%2F15%2Fnew-earth-or-renewed-earth%2F&amp;seed_title=New+Earth+or+Renewed%26%23160%3BEarth%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-10531</link>
		<dc:creator>maz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:26:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi Rupert...I&#039;m afraid I can&#039;t find the John Stott comments, although they may be in a post I made on a forum a couple of years ago, so I might go looking.

These are the thoughts and quotes I posted on my own forum a while ago...
please remove or edit if too long, Jason.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here are some thoughts which express the way God has led me in studying the Word about &#039;&#039;End Times.&#039;&#039; ... 
(initially, as a newish Christian, I did believe, from one or two scriptures, that the earth would be destroyed and then a new one made...literally) 
I believe something along these lines now... 

Godâ€™s plan is â€œthrough him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on Earth or things in Heavenâ€ (Col 1: 20). At the heart of Romans, Paul wrote this: â€œThe creation waits in eager expectation for the Sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration... in hope, because the creation itself will be liberated from bondage to decay, and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of Godâ€ (Rom 8:19-22). 

â€œThese words of Paul point not to the annihilation of the present material universe on the day of revelation, to be replaced by a universe entirely new, but to the transformation of the present universe so it will fulfil the purpose for which God created it.â€ F F Bruce 

There is a unity in Biblical truth, that â€œall thingsâ€ will be â€œdestroyedâ€, literally â€˜loosenedâ€™ (luomenÃ´n, 2 Pet 3:11), â€œrestoredâ€ (Acts 3:21) and â€œrenewedâ€, literally â€˜born-againâ€™ (palingenesia, Matt 19:28). Regarding the â€˜end of the worldâ€™, what ends is not creationâ€™s identity, but its present cursed condition or state, described by Paul as â€œbondage to decayâ€ and â€œfrustrationâ€ (â€˜not fulfilling the purpose for which God intended itâ€™ ). Continuous identity + change of state = hope This change will not come by evolutionary progress. Nor will it come through an annihilation and replacement of creation, as the Bible makes clear in a number of places. 

1. Godâ€™s curse on Adam included the ground (Gen 3). Since the curse on the earth is rooted in Adam, so just as Christ lifts the curse from Adam, it lifts also from the earth, since; â€œthe fate of creation is indissolubly linked with that of manâ€ Martyn Lloyd-Jones 

â€œThrough the redemptive work of the second man [Jesus] the fallâ€™s entail is broken not only for man himself but [also] for the creation.â€ F F Bruce 

2. Godâ€™s decree establishes the earth forever (Ps 78:69, 148:1-3). 

Godâ€™s creation is not lost, for â€œthe mystery of his will [is] to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christâ€ (Eph 1:10). 

4. Godâ€™s judgement is â€˜good newsâ€™ for the creatures on earth; â€œthey will sing before the Lord, for he comes, he comes to judge the earthâ€ (Ps 96:12, 145:21, Rev 5:13). Godâ€™s work of art is the church, set upon the earth, and Godâ€™s restoration project is being revealed. 

God will restore the present fallen world to perfect condition. John Calvin â€˜Apocalypseâ€™ in English acquired an entirely negative meaning, but is from the Greek word for â€˜revelationâ€™. 

The End of the World ? â€œThe world (kosmos) of that time perished (apÃ´leto) by water... the heaven and earth of this time is stored up for fire, the day of destruction of ungodly menâ€ (2 Pet 3:6-7) Peter says the world (kosmos) was â€˜utterly destroyedâ€™ (apÃ´leto) by the Flood. Yet he knew that even outside the Ark, fish and seeds survived (Gen 8:11). He is using terms like â€˜worldâ€™ to refer to a passing state of creation. In fact, Peter mention three states of creation; 1. â€œthe world of that timeâ€, (2 Pet 3:6) which is â€œthe ancient world â€ before the Flood (2 Pet 2:5); 2. â€œthe present heaven and earthâ€ (2 Pet 3:7); 3. â€œa new heaven and a new earthâ€ (2 Pet 3:13). 

New Testament view of the Ages of creation In the Bible, â€˜the endâ€™ refers to â€œthe end of the ageâ€ (eg Matt 13:40, 24:3), which is followed by the beginning of â€œthe age to comeâ€ (Mark 10:30) and an Eternal time. 

Some identify Judgement Fire pseudo-scientifically with volcanic lava, comets or H-bombs, and suggest that it will physically melt the surface of the earth. But biblical Judgement Fire has qualities unlike any of these fires, for it tests (1 Cor 3:13); it discriminates (Mal 4:1-3, 2 Thess 1:7); it reaches into heaven (2 Pet 3:7) and destroys the spiritual Powers (Rev 20:10). The â€˜elementsâ€™ (stoicheia) which this Fire â€˜meltsâ€™ (2 Pet 3:10) are not the kind that you see on a Periodic Table! When â€˜stoicheiaâ€™ is used in the Bible (Col 2:8,20, Gal 4:3,9, Heb 5:12) it always refers to non-material entities. 
In 2 Peter it may refer to evil â€˜heavenly powersâ€™. 

What kind of fire is this? God&#039;s fire amazed Moses by burning in a bush without consuming the bush (Exodus 3:2). Peter had seen this Fire upon the disciplesâ€™ heads at Pentecost, preceded by a rushing noise (Acts 2:1-4), and he knew a greater â€˜roarâ€™ would accompany this Fire when it fills heaven and earth on Judgement Day (2 Pet 3:10). At that time â€œthe earth will be laid bareâ€ literally â€˜discovered, foundâ€™ (heurethÃªsetai 2 Pet 3:12) suggesting a world-wide judicial scrutiny. This view fits the letterâ€™s context. Peter was dealing with men of unrestrained lusts (2 Pet 3:3) âˆ’ the prospect of an indiscriminate universal annihilation would simply spur them on to sin faster â€˜for tomorrow we dieâ€™! Instead, Peter warns them of a coming discriminating judgement. 

In Jesus, death is destroyed, and the body is changed; â€˜glorifiedâ€™. 
Similarly, the transition from old to new creation is not a loss of identity, but a change of state, with physical continuity and change. Here are two illustrations. 
1. â€œJesus... will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious bodyâ€ (Phil 3:21, Romans 8:11, 1 Cor 15:37), indicates change rather than replacement. 
2. The special case of those who are alive when Jesus returns makes it clear that our original bodies are not discarded and replaced, but â€œchangedâ€, for Paul says â€œwe shall not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a flash, in the twinkling of an eyeâ€ (1 Cor:15:51). 
Manâ€™s way is to give up on what is spoilt; to throw it away and get a replacement. Godâ€™s way of going from old to new is to restore what has been spoilt; to make it new. 
This applies to us, and to the rest of creation, for â€œthe old order of things has passed away... I am making every-thing new!â€ (Rev 21:4-5). 

The â€˜newâ€™ creation is the â€˜oldâ€™ creation renewed! â€œThere is going to be both continuity and discontinuity in the regeneration of the world, as in the resurrection of the body.â€ John Stott â€œGod will one day change our bodies and then he will change this world itself. We expect to see this world that is now full of sin turned into a paradise, a garden of God. 

In this very place, where sin has triumphed, ...grace will much more abound.â€ C H Spurgeon â€œWe shall live in the body, on this renewed, renovated, regenerated earth.â€ Martyn Lloyd-Jones 

The Return of King Jesus Christ is coming to reign over all the earth. There will be a miraculous meeting and welcome at his homecoming. The young church at Thessalonika seems to have worried that only those â€œstill alive, who are left till the coming of the Lordâ€ would see the Kingdom. Paul reassured them that those who died would be raised up from their graves and together with those still alive be â€œcaught upâ€¦ in the clouds to meet the Lord in the airâ€ (1 Thess 4:15-17). 
A popular belief is that this refers to a permanent &#039;escape&#039; from earth. But a different picture emerges from the text. The â€˜comingâ€™ (parousia) alludes to an ancient custom in which â€œan official visits a city... when [he] got near, all the citizens would stream out and line the road to welcome himâ€ (J Balchin). Also, the word here translated â€˜meetingâ€™ (apantÃªsin) is only used twice elsewhere; once when the vigilant guests go out to meet the bridegroom to escort him into the feast (Matt 25:6), and again when the Christians of Rome go along the road some distance to meet Paul and escort him into their city (Acts 28:15). 
When Jesus returns to earth (Acts 1:11) His people will go out to meet him and join in His triumphal procession. The Second Coming is a â€˜comingâ€™ not a â€˜goingâ€™! Godâ€™s Eternal Reign on Earth 

â€œI saw the New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God... Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with themâ€ (Rev 21:2-3) â€œThe kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever.â€ (Rev 11:15). 

Christâ€™s kingdom on earth is not temporary. This is the inheritance promised to Jesus (Ps 2:8), and His co-heirs such as Abraham (Rom 4:13). â€œBlessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earthâ€ (Matt 5:5), and â€œthey will reign on the Earthâ€ (Rev 5:10). 

We await â€œthe restoration of the whole creation, not only to what it was before, but to something yet more glorious... this is not temporary, it is final, it is full, it is permanent.â€ Martyn Lloyd-Jones 

â€œIt is Godâ€™s purpose that his supernatural kingdom be spread in this natural world.â€ Colin Urquhart â€œ[Since] there is going to be total redemption in the future, not only of man, but of all creation, the Christianâ€¦ should be the man who, with Gods helpâ€¦ is treating nature now in the direction of the way nature will be then. 

Suggestions for further reading: Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, IVP, 1994 

Tony Higton, I Believe in Heaven on Earth, Hodder and Stoughton, 1999 

David Lawrence, Heaven... itâ€™s not the end of the world!, Scripture Union, 1995 

Martyn Lloyd-Jones, The Perseverance of the Saints, Romans 8:17-39, IVP, 1975 

Stephen Travis, End of Story?, IVP, 1997 

N T Wright, New Heavens, New Earth, Booklet B11, Grove Biblical Series, Grove Books, 1999 

Albert Wolters, Creation Regained, Paternoster Press, 1985 
This brief was prepared for the John Ray Initiative by John McKeown. Thanks are due to Dean Ohlman, Prof Tom Finger, Dr Ron Elsdon, Rev Dr Ernest Lucas, the JRI Trustees and others for many helpful comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Rupert&#8230;I&#8217;m afraid I can&#8217;t find the John Stott comments, although they may be in a post I made on a forum a couple of years ago, so I might go looking.</p>
<p>These are the thoughts and quotes I posted on my own forum a while ago&#8230;<br />
please remove or edit if too long, Jason.<br />
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</p>
<p>Here are some thoughts which express the way God has led me in studying the Word about &#8221;End Times.&#8221; &#8230;<br />
(initially, as a newish Christian, I did believe, from one or two scriptures, that the earth would be destroyed and then a new one made&#8230;literally)<br />
I believe something along these lines now&#8230; </p>
<p>Godâ€™s plan is â€œthrough him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on Earth or things in Heavenâ€ (Col 1: 20). At the heart of Romans, Paul wrote this: â€œThe creation waits in eager expectation for the Sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration&#8230; in hope, because the creation itself will be liberated from bondage to decay, and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of Godâ€ (Rom 8:19-22). </p>
<p>â€œThese words of Paul point not to the annihilation of the present material universe on the day of revelation, to be replaced by a universe entirely new, but to the transformation of the present universe so it will fulfil the purpose for which God created it.â€ F F Bruce </p>
<p>There is a unity in Biblical truth, that â€œall thingsâ€ will be â€œdestroyedâ€, literally â€˜loosenedâ€™ (luomenÃ´n, 2 Pet 3:11), â€œrestoredâ€ (Acts 3:21) and â€œrenewedâ€, literally â€˜born-againâ€™ (palingenesia, Matt 19:28). Regarding the â€˜end of the worldâ€™, what ends is not creationâ€™s identity, but its present cursed condition or state, described by Paul as â€œbondage to decayâ€ and â€œfrustrationâ€ (â€˜not fulfilling the purpose for which God intended itâ€™ ). Continuous identity + change of state = hope This change will not come by evolutionary progress. Nor will it come through an annihilation and replacement of creation, as the Bible makes clear in a number of places. </p>
<p>1. Godâ€™s curse on Adam included the ground (Gen 3). Since the curse on the earth is rooted in Adam, so just as Christ lifts the curse from Adam, it lifts also from the earth, since; â€œthe fate of creation is indissolubly linked with that of manâ€ Martyn Lloyd-Jones </p>
<p>â€œThrough the redemptive work of the second man [Jesus] the fallâ€™s entail is broken not only for man himself but [also] for the creation.â€ F F Bruce </p>
<p>2. Godâ€™s decree establishes the earth forever (Ps 78:69, 148:1-3). </p>
<p>Godâ€™s creation is not lost, for â€œthe mystery of his will [is] to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christâ€ (Eph 1:10). </p>
<p>4. Godâ€™s judgement is â€˜good newsâ€™ for the creatures on earth; â€œthey will sing before the Lord, for he comes, he comes to judge the earthâ€ (Ps 96:12, 145:21, Rev 5:13). Godâ€™s work of art is the church, set upon the earth, and Godâ€™s restoration project is being revealed. </p>
<p>God will restore the present fallen world to perfect condition. John Calvin â€˜Apocalypseâ€™ in English acquired an entirely negative meaning, but is from the Greek word for â€˜revelationâ€™. </p>
<p>The End of the World ? â€œThe world (kosmos) of that time perished (apÃ´leto) by water&#8230; the heaven and earth of this time is stored up for fire, the day of destruction of ungodly menâ€ (2 Pet 3:6-7) Peter says the world (kosmos) was â€˜utterly destroyedâ€™ (apÃ´leto) by the Flood. Yet he knew that even outside the Ark, fish and seeds survived (Gen 8:11). He is using terms like â€˜worldâ€™ to refer to a passing state of creation. In fact, Peter mention three states of creation; 1. â€œthe world of that timeâ€, (2 Pet 3:6) which is â€œthe ancient world â€ before the Flood (2 Pet 2:5); 2. â€œthe present heaven and earthâ€ (2 Pet 3:7); 3. â€œa new heaven and a new earthâ€ (2 Pet 3:13). </p>
<p>New Testament view of the Ages of creation In the Bible, â€˜the endâ€™ refers to â€œthe end of the ageâ€ (eg Matt 13:40, 24:3), which is followed by the beginning of â€œthe age to comeâ€ (Mark 10:30) and an Eternal time. </p>
<p>Some identify Judgement Fire pseudo-scientifically with volcanic lava, comets or H-bombs, and suggest that it will physically melt the surface of the earth. But biblical Judgement Fire has qualities unlike any of these fires, for it tests (1 Cor 3:13); it discriminates (Mal 4:1-3, 2 Thess 1:7); it reaches into heaven (2 Pet 3:7) and destroys the spiritual Powers (Rev 20:10). The â€˜elementsâ€™ (stoicheia) which this Fire â€˜meltsâ€™ (2 Pet 3:10) are not the kind that you see on a Periodic Table! When â€˜stoicheiaâ€™ is used in the Bible (Col 2:8,20, Gal 4:3,9, Heb 5:12) it always refers to non-material entities.<br />
In 2 Peter it may refer to evil â€˜heavenly powersâ€™. </p>
<p>What kind of fire is this? God&#8217;s fire amazed Moses by burning in a bush without consuming the bush (Exodus 3:2). Peter had seen this Fire upon the disciplesâ€™ heads at Pentecost, preceded by a rushing noise (Acts 2:1-4), and he knew a greater â€˜roarâ€™ would accompany this Fire when it fills heaven and earth on Judgement Day (2 Pet 3:10). At that time â€œthe earth will be laid bareâ€ literally â€˜discovered, foundâ€™ (heurethÃªsetai 2 Pet 3:12) suggesting a world-wide judicial scrutiny. This view fits the letterâ€™s context. Peter was dealing with men of unrestrained lusts (2 Pet 3:3) âˆ’ the prospect of an indiscriminate universal annihilation would simply spur them on to sin faster â€˜for tomorrow we dieâ€™! Instead, Peter warns them of a coming discriminating judgement. </p>
<p>In Jesus, death is destroyed, and the body is changed; â€˜glorifiedâ€™.<br />
Similarly, the transition from old to new creation is not a loss of identity, but a change of state, with physical continuity and change. Here are two illustrations.<br />
1. â€œJesus&#8230; will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious bodyâ€ (Phil 3:21, Romans 8:11, 1 Cor 15:37), indicates change rather than replacement.<br />
2. The special case of those who are alive when Jesus returns makes it clear that our original bodies are not discarded and replaced, but â€œchangedâ€, for Paul says â€œwe shall not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a flash, in the twinkling of an eyeâ€ (1 Cor:15:51).<br />
Manâ€™s way is to give up on what is spoilt; to throw it away and get a replacement. Godâ€™s way of going from old to new is to restore what has been spoilt; to make it new.<br />
This applies to us, and to the rest of creation, for â€œthe old order of things has passed away&#8230; I am making every-thing new!â€ (Rev 21:4-5). </p>
<p>The â€˜newâ€™ creation is the â€˜oldâ€™ creation renewed! â€œThere is going to be both continuity and discontinuity in the regeneration of the world, as in the resurrection of the body.â€ John Stott â€œGod will one day change our bodies and then he will change this world itself. We expect to see this world that is now full of sin turned into a paradise, a garden of God. </p>
<p>In this very place, where sin has triumphed, &#8230;grace will much more abound.â€ C H Spurgeon â€œWe shall live in the body, on this renewed, renovated, regenerated earth.â€ Martyn Lloyd-Jones </p>
<p>The Return of King Jesus Christ is coming to reign over all the earth. There will be a miraculous meeting and welcome at his homecoming. The young church at Thessalonika seems to have worried that only those â€œstill alive, who are left till the coming of the Lordâ€ would see the Kingdom. Paul reassured them that those who died would be raised up from their graves and together with those still alive be â€œcaught upâ€¦ in the clouds to meet the Lord in the airâ€ (1 Thess 4:15-17).<br />
A popular belief is that this refers to a permanent &#8216;escape&#8217; from earth. But a different picture emerges from the text. The â€˜comingâ€™ (parousia) alludes to an ancient custom in which â€œan official visits a city&#8230; when [he] got near, all the citizens would stream out and line the road to welcome himâ€ (J Balchin). Also, the word here translated â€˜meetingâ€™ (apantÃªsin) is only used twice elsewhere; once when the vigilant guests go out to meet the bridegroom to escort him into the feast (Matt 25:6), and again when the Christians of Rome go along the road some distance to meet Paul and escort him into their city (Acts 28:15).<br />
When Jesus returns to earth (Acts 1:11) His people will go out to meet him and join in His triumphal procession. The Second Coming is a â€˜comingâ€™ not a â€˜goingâ€™! Godâ€™s Eternal Reign on Earth </p>
<p>â€œI saw the New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God&#8230; Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with themâ€ (Rev 21:2-3) â€œThe kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever.â€ (Rev 11:15). </p>
<p>Christâ€™s kingdom on earth is not temporary. This is the inheritance promised to Jesus (Ps 2:8), and His co-heirs such as Abraham (Rom 4:13). â€œBlessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earthâ€ (Matt 5:5), and â€œthey will reign on the Earthâ€ (Rev 5:10). </p>
<p>We await â€œthe restoration of the whole creation, not only to what it was before, but to something yet more glorious&#8230; this is not temporary, it is final, it is full, it is permanent.â€ Martyn Lloyd-Jones </p>
<p>â€œIt is Godâ€™s purpose that his supernatural kingdom be spread in this natural world.â€ Colin Urquhart â€œ[Since] there is going to be total redemption in the future, not only of man, but of all creation, the Christianâ€¦ should be the man who, with Gods helpâ€¦ is treating nature now in the direction of the way nature will be then. </p>
<p>Suggestions for further reading: Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, IVP, 1994 </p>
<p>Tony Higton, I Believe in Heaven on Earth, Hodder and Stoughton, 1999 </p>
<p>David Lawrence, Heaven&#8230; itâ€™s not the end of the world!, Scripture Union, 1995 </p>
<p>Martyn Lloyd-Jones, The Perseverance of the Saints, Romans 8:17-39, IVP, 1975 </p>
<p>Stephen Travis, End of Story?, IVP, 1997 </p>
<p>N T Wright, New Heavens, New Earth, Booklet B11, Grove Biblical Series, Grove Books, 1999 </p>
<p>Albert Wolters, Creation Regained, Paternoster Press, 1985<br />
This brief was prepared for the John Ray Initiative by John McKeown. Thanks are due to Dean Ohlman, Prof Tom Finger, Dr Ron Elsdon, Rev Dr Ernest Lucas, the JRI Trustees and others for many helpful comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Rupert Ward</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F06%2F15%2Fnew-earth-or-renewed-earth%2F&amp;seed_title=New+Earth+or+Renewed%26%23160%3BEarth%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-10513</link>
		<dc:creator>Rupert Ward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2007/06/15/new-earth-or-renewed-earth/#comment-10513</guid>
		<description>Thanks Maz ... I&#039;d be interested to know what Stott says about it...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Maz &#8230; I&#8217;d be interested to know what Stott says about it&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Alastair</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F06%2F15%2Fnew-earth-or-renewed-earth%2F&amp;seed_title=New+Earth+or+Renewed%26%23160%3BEarth%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-10475</link>
		<dc:creator>Alastair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2007/06/15/new-earth-or-renewed-earth/#comment-10475</guid>
		<description>Another thought of the dangers of a spiritual only heaven type thing: just saw the film Pan&#039;s Labyrinth, where a priest who is colluding with the Fascists, when asked on his opinion of rounding up and killing the rebels, says &quot;God already has their souls. He hardly cares what happens to their bodies&quot;.

I know this is just a film, but I think this is the sort of evil that can result from the gnostic belief that heaven is a spiritual realm only, and that the earth is bad, and we just need to get off this dump and get into the pure spirit world of heaven.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another thought of the dangers of a spiritual only heaven type thing: just saw the film Pan&#8217;s Labyrinth, where a priest who is colluding with the Fascists, when asked on his opinion of rounding up and killing the rebels, says &#8220;God already has their souls. He hardly cares what happens to their bodies&#8221;.</p>
<p>I know this is just a film, but I think this is the sort of evil that can result from the gnostic belief that heaven is a spiritual realm only, and that the earth is bad, and we just need to get off this dump and get into the pure spirit world of heaven.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: maz</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F06%2F15%2Fnew-earth-or-renewed-earth%2F&amp;seed_title=New+Earth+or+Renewed%26%23160%3BEarth%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-10454</link>
		<dc:creator>maz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2007/06/15/new-earth-or-renewed-earth/#comment-10454</guid>
		<description>Hallelujah!! :)
I&#039;ve used almost the same words and comments on a forum a couple of years ago as I began to see this.
Greek/Hellenistic thinking about &#039;spirit&#039; is one of the culprits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hallelujah!! :)<br />
I&#8217;ve used almost the same words and comments on a forum a couple of years ago as I began to see this.<br />
Greek/Hellenistic thinking about &#8217;spirit&#8217; is one of the culprits.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: maz</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F06%2F15%2Fnew-earth-or-renewed-earth%2F&amp;seed_title=New+Earth+or+Renewed%26%23160%3BEarth%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-10453</link>
		<dc:creator>maz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2007/06/15/new-earth-or-renewed-earth/#comment-10453</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m really glad that someone else is looking at this too, as I haven&#039;t found much understanding around about it.
I&#039;ve thought about it loads in the last few years, and read stuff on it, and written some thoughts myself.
John Stott writes some good thoughts on it.
I&#039;ll try and find them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m really glad that someone else is looking at this too, as I haven&#8217;t found much understanding around about it.<br />
I&#8217;ve thought about it loads in the last few years, and read stuff on it, and written some thoughts myself.<br />
John Stott writes some good thoughts on it.<br />
I&#8217;ll try and find them.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rupert Ward</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F06%2F15%2Fnew-earth-or-renewed-earth%2F&amp;seed_title=New+Earth+or+Renewed%26%23160%3BEarth%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-10332</link>
		<dc:creator>Rupert Ward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 22:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2007/06/15/new-earth-or-renewed-earth/#comment-10332</guid>
		<description>The dispensationalists have a lot to answer for!  Not come across Hoekema ... will keep my eye out for him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The dispensationalists have a lot to answer for!  Not come across Hoekema &#8230; will keep my eye out for him.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rupert Ward</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F06%2F15%2Fnew-earth-or-renewed-earth%2F&amp;seed_title=New+Earth+or+Renewed%26%23160%3BEarth%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-10331</link>
		<dc:creator>Rupert Ward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 22:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2007/06/15/new-earth-or-renewed-earth/#comment-10331</guid>
		<description>Makes good sense alastair - thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Makes good sense alastair &#8211; thanks.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Alastair</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F06%2F15%2Fnew-earth-or-renewed-earth%2F&amp;seed_title=New+Earth+or+Renewed%26%23160%3BEarth%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-10329</link>
		<dc:creator>Alastair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 20:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2007/06/15/new-earth-or-renewed-earth/#comment-10329</guid>
		<description>Right you are, Rupert. Come to think of it, I think I came across this doctrine from Anthony Hoekema, classic ammilenial reformed theologian. I must admit I prefer him to Grudem any day (in a strictly theological fashion naturally). Reading Hoekema gave me a renewed appreciated for reformed theology. Also note that some of the emerging churches are charisimatic reformed, like Mars Hill Seattle.

Perhaps this is an example of the emerging church building on the strengths of previous movements?

I think the voices of the dispensationlists have drowned out some of the good classic reformed teaching.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right you are, Rupert. Come to think of it, I think I came across this doctrine from Anthony Hoekema, classic ammilenial reformed theologian. I must admit I prefer him to Grudem any day (in a strictly theological fashion naturally). Reading Hoekema gave me a renewed appreciated for reformed theology. Also note that some of the emerging churches are charisimatic reformed, like Mars Hill Seattle.</p>
<p>Perhaps this is an example of the emerging church building on the strengths of previous movements?</p>
<p>I think the voices of the dispensationlists have drowned out some of the good classic reformed teaching.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Alastair</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F06%2F15%2Fnew-earth-or-renewed-earth%2F&amp;seed_title=New+Earth+or+Renewed%26%23160%3BEarth%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-10328</link>
		<dc:creator>Alastair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:57:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jasonclark.ws/2007/06/15/new-earth-or-renewed-earth/#comment-10328</guid>
		<description>I think one thing we have to be careful of is to avoid this Greek idea of heaven being a non-pysical, non-material, &quot;spiritual&quot; airy-fairy kind of place. Even more so regarding the new creation itself. I used to think of heaven and God&#039;s domain like this, but then I realised that Jesus was in heaven in bodily form. He resurrected and ascended into heaven! Now, even though I can&#039;t make sense of it, I understand the spiritual world more like another spatial dimension, rather than some sort of floating on the clouds in a bodiless spirit sort of thing. But not just any old alternative spatial dimension: heavenspace has some sort of supremacy over our space, hence Jesus&#039; wall-walking party trick...

I&#039;m rambling, but I think I make sense!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think one thing we have to be careful of is to avoid this Greek idea of heaven being a non-pysical, non-material, &#8220;spiritual&#8221; airy-fairy kind of place. Even more so regarding the new creation itself. I used to think of heaven and God&#8217;s domain like this, but then I realised that Jesus was in heaven in bodily form. He resurrected and ascended into heaven! Now, even though I can&#8217;t make sense of it, I understand the spiritual world more like another spatial dimension, rather than some sort of floating on the clouds in a bodiless spirit sort of thing. But not just any old alternative spatial dimension: heavenspace has some sort of supremacy over our space, hence Jesus&#8217; wall-walking party trick&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m rambling, but I think I make sense!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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