Comments on: Utopian Dreams

By: CCN » Blog Archive » Community Dreams

CCN » Blog Archive » Community Dreams — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:08:30 +0000

[...] is a really interesting post by Jason Clarke on Community. The first point grabbed my attention in particular. It was a good reminder that community in and [...]

By: Was ist Gemeinschaft? « Tiefebene

Was ist Gemeinschaft? « Tiefebene — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:48:30 +0000

[...] Peter Aschoff stieÃŸ ich auf einen Post von Jason Clark, der im Anschluss an ein Buch von Tobias Jones darÃ¼ber nachdenkt, wie authentische christliche [...]

By: Simon Thompson

Simon Thompson — Thu, 07 Jun 2007 10:50:06 +0000

Good question Jason. I guess there are two foundational points before I answer. Firstly, there are two main meanings to the word authority: one relates to who you obey and the other relates to who is worth listening to. Secondly, ultimately self is always going to be final arbiter unless we return to mediaeval times.

In terms of who you listen to. I certainly value scholarship. The quality of books available is such that church minister’s sermons simply cannot compete. Sermons generally combine simplistic generalisations with a complacent sense of certainty.

I can certainly see that it is possible to belong to a group of fellow travellers, though I have so many friends that have abandoned orthodox faith that I simply cannot see the value of joining (and thereby legitimising) a community that you will have to leave if you change. The renunciation of choice coupled with a community bounded by rules and beliefs really equates to being unable to grow for fear of growing outside the community bounds.

There are some models that I take hope from. I have friends who are not even close to orthodox in belief, but who go to Iona every year. I can also see possibilities in the Liquid Church concept, in Greenbelt and in J.H. Yoder’s Body Politics.

By: Jason

Jason — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 07:19:37 +0000

Hi Simon, great to hear from you. Is there any alternative to losing yourself to a group, or living with self as sole authority?

By: Simon Thompson

Simon Thompson — Thu, 31 May 2007 22:51:05 +0000

It is usually at this point that I shake my head and slink out of the back of the church resolving never to join. I am a refugee from the Restoration movement in the 80’s and there is nothing in your list that would not be signed up to happily by them. When I left, I decided that any organisation that existed with a goal other than community would be automatically abusive. Since then I have seen that groups which are inward looking are pretty pointless.

I am not saying that the points are wrong per se, just that they are so broad that they are open to abuse. As someone whose theology has evolved over the years married to someone who has moved from charismatic con-evo to a humanist viewpoint with a vague sense of the spiritual, but no trust of it, the idea that I would sign up exclusively to any group with set rules and beliefs would be a triumph of faith over experience.

Having twice thrown myself into something with full commitment and twice been pressured into conformity by hierarchies that saw my renouncing the right to quit as an effective lever, I really can’t see any combination of hierarcy, rules and shared goals that I would be able to sign up to.

By: Paul

Paul — Mon, 28 May 2007 07:50:40 +0000

thanks Ian, it’s a very good point you make. I’m struck by some of the language in Acts where it talks about communities releasing the apsostles, particularly Paul so he could go and establish other communities – they discerned the call of God together and then released him with their blessing. I’m not arguing against limiting our commitment, just where there needs to be as you say being present for each other with our time and a commitment to be present rather than a commitment to escape :)

By: Jason Clark

Jason Clark — Fri, 25 May 2007 06:42:04 +0000

Hi Tom, that’s a great example of a church, and it requires a huge committment to live and be part of that community.

As Ian mentioned above, committment is key, and is I think the dirty word in our culture. Why be committed to anything, any place or anyone.

We can’t sustain beliefes, and a christian way of live without others, committed together, in time and space, yet we think we can so often.

Thanks for taking time to comment.

By: Jason Clark

Jason Clark — Fri, 25 May 2007 06:39:13 +0000

Hi Jonny, and we assume others will provide for others needs in a consumer society, be that local government, or some notion of ‘others’. The energy it takes for the consumer self is debilitating for any notion of self in a community context, maybe.

By: Jason Clark

Jason Clark — Fri, 25 May 2007 06:37:07 +0000

That resonates with me Paul. I know it’s annecdotal but everyone where I live seems to be passing through, even if they have lived there a long time, they talk about how they wish they lived somewhere else, usually by the sea, away from everyone.

I do think that in the west we have no sense of place, in terms of being connected. The main sense of place we have is on holiday, hence the desire to move and live somewhere like we went on holiday.

In the other comments, there seems to be a thread of doing something together in a location, no matter how short term, to improve a community, leads to real community.

By: Tom

Tom — Thu, 24 May 2007 19:01:11 +0000

This post is so helpful, Jason. Thank you.

As I look over your 8 suggestions, I have seen all of them manifested in an integrated whole at Church of the Savior in Washington, DC. I have to confess that this was the first church that ever startled and surprised me. I was totally caught off guard by who they were and what they were in the process of becoming, even after 50 years. The book that describes the Church of the Savior story is Call to Commitment by Elizabeth 0′ Connor.