More Heresy
13 Apr 2007
After the previous post on heresy, I have beem talking with Martin Downes, and I’ve been taking a look at his superb site that is focused on his research and thoughts on the nature and concepts of heresy. Take a look I think you’ll find lots there to interact with.
Tagged: Blogs, Heresy, Martin-Downes, Theology
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Comment by steven hamilton
12.54 pm on 13 Apr 2007
not sure if i should post this, because i am sure just reading a blog doesn’t convey the entire meaning of what a person is saying…but
hmmmm…maybe i just got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, but as i read through several of the entries, there was this waft of arrogance in the air (and maybe it was me). while some of it rang true in my ears (not the piece that sees conspiracy in the emerging conversation to displace and discredit the integrity of followers of jesus from recent times), it all comes across as ‘having-all-the-answers’ and a bit ‘holier-than’thou’ in attitude, like some Bible Answer Man superhero. again, maybe i am feeling under the weather so-to-speak, and yet i think i understand the thrust of Ian Hamilton’s quote, which lamented the: ‘cold orthodoxy brought about principally by perpetual controversy on unimportant subjects.”
but i must say with my best postmodern smirk: unimportant by whose definition? (half-joking) i realize Ian is pointing out that rather than get bogged down in endless discussions on the controversies of divisive subjects (like what size and shape should the eucharist take? or how many angels fit on the head of a pin?), we should focus on the great truths and mission of our faith that bring unity (i would add unity in diversity, which is a good thing and can keep us from hovering around a cold orthodoxy).
i did appreciate the entry from which you got the picture, but of course maybe i agree only because i struggle with what i see as the zeitgeist of our times here in Maryland?
teachers and preachers in the church are called to a higher standard of responsibility, and at times this weighs heavily…am i a heretic? but who has grasped the entire Truth? i think here i am echoing what Paul mentioned in a comment in the previous post on heresy as an attiude: http://jasonclark.ws/2007/04/12/heresy-is-an-attitude/#comment-9761
apologies for sounding harsh and critical, i think i’m just tired…
Comment by Jason
2.27 pm on 13 Apr 2007
Hi Steve…that’s a series of question beyond my ability to respond…try a dialogue with Martin, he’s a nice guy!
Comment by steven hamilton
3.03 pm on 13 Apr 2007
i think he probably is a great guy with deep faith and real concern for us in the church…when we read things without entering the context it can come off to us in whatever mood we are in, and i think there is more of that in my reading of his stuff than un-grace-filled-ness on his part…
but, what warms my heart and cheers my face a little is the distant thought that someday i will make it back to london and we can all go out for a few rounds at the nearest (ok, maybe not the nearest) pub to pontificate and exascerbate and altogether co-miserate on our life and times in the now-and-not-yet
peace
Comment by Martin Downes
5.02 pm on 13 Apr 2007
Hi there Steve,
Writing about heresy is very challenging since it is such an emotive subject. It does involve making choices, decisions, and judgments about theological positions. Inevitably that can appear to be, as you say, arrogant and holier-than-thou. I’m quite persuaded that it need not be, that one can make these judgments and do in with humility. I have found Paul’s words about dealing with theological opponents at the end of 2 Timothy 2 really helpful in this regard.
Comment by steven hamilton
5.31 pm on 13 Apr 2007
indeed…thanks martin. it is such a tough challenge, i agree. it does need to be done, i have no doubt of that…and, as you point out, it is a challenge to make those choices, decisions, and judgments in such a way that they are heard in the context spoken, but i would also add ’specifically’. as i mentioned, and likely much to my own chagrin, i glanced through the first few entries, with little or no contextualization, coupled with my own dour mood, and i followed as far as the second entry. i too am something of a wordcrafter and am ever sensitized to words and the misuse of language. yet it seems to me that you sit in wrongful judgment (for judging within the household of God is not out of order, as Paul tells his corinthian friends in 1 corinthians 9). the way i read it is that the post runs out of bounds to some possibly illogical potentiality of ‘the emerging conversation’ being a vast conspiracy to unseat and cast dispersion on their very forbearers in the church. unless, i hear you wrongly, and rather you are saying: at one intellectual end of the emerging conversation is the push to, etc…then i would absolutely agree with you the assessment/judgment (not that my agreeing is the end-all, be-all, at all). do you see the difference i point to? what i read appears that it sits in judgment on all of it (which in my maybe-not-so-humble opinion is inaccurate at best), where if the other is true, it further distinguishes and points more directly to the problem exposed in the post, by pointing with some specificity at what you are aiming. in that, Paul’s word in 2 timothy ring even clearer as one seeks to practice them, as you do.
thanks.
peace
Comment by Martin Downes
6.05 pm on 13 Apr 2007
Steve,
Glad that you picked me up on that comment. I was thinking about specific authors who have made the claim that the Old Princeton theologians were modernists and foundationalists. I didn’t list any of them by name and didn’t mean to imply that the part stands for the whole. The matter is dealt with extensively in the book “Reclaiming the Centre.”
Comment by steven hamilton
12.28 pm on 14 Apr 2007
interesting…is ‘reclaiming the centre’ a decent read?
Comment by Martin Downes
12.59 pm on 14 Apr 2007
Yes, I think so. There are some excellent essays in there.
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Comment by makeesha
5.07 pm on 13 Apr 2007
I pretty much solve that problem by not accusing people of heresy. ;)
Comment by steven hamilton
5.43 pm on 13 Apr 2007
PS –
Martin, i really liked your label for the post: The Defense Against the Dark Arts, clever, almost cheeky in a fun way.
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