They like Jesus but not the Church?
22 Feb 2007
I’ve had the idea of “people like Jesus and not the church” as blog post in my ideas box for a while. Seeing that Dan Kimball has his new book out on this topic got me to drag it out and put it here. I’m sure Dan’s book is as great as his previous books, I haven’t read it yet, and what follows it not a critique of his book but a reference to the idea of people being into Jesus and not church.
Since the day I became a christian I have heard people say people like Jesus but not the church. I can remember when I wasn’t a christian and liked the idea of Jesus but not of church for sure. I’ve heard variations of this, along the lines of “if Jesus came back today do you think he would be visiting any of our churches?” with the reponse that of course Jesus wouldn’t be caught dead (excuse the pun) in our churches.
Now for certain the church has gotten in the way of people knowing Jesus. Nothing new there just read the New Testament, seems the church was a stumbling block to many people who were interested in Jesus. And we do need to look at how the church, supposedly the body of Christ can too often be the thing that keeps people from Jesus.
Yet lets also umask the myth of people being into Jesus and not the church. Are people really into Jesus? Maybe in the way we are into a celebrity. The Pope, Mother Terressa can be media celebrities that millions adore, but when it comes to believing and doing what they do, people are far from interested in them.
Maybe people are into Jesus the celebrity, it would be cool to meet him, see a miracle, maybe have him help me directly away from those pesky church people to meet my needs. But to follow him, believe in him, do what he did, lay down my life for others, is that really the Jesus people are into?
We see in the New Testament, Jesus unmask the church of his day that kept people from knowing God, yet as people followed him their numbers dwindled, as they realised that jesus the celebrity and Jesus as lord and master of my life was something very different. And utlimately where was the explosion of people that really connected to a life devoted to following Jesus? It was in the church in Acts.
We still like binary opposites, of Jesus to the church but without the church there is no Jesus, and without Jesus there is no church. I imagine Jesus on a cold rainy sunday in London, would walk into the dead local anglican church and sit next to the 80 year lady, whose whole life had been lived around a rhythmn of worship, who quitely and completely unknown had done more mission through her faith through that dead church, than most people who talked about and aspired to mssion. I imagine he would turn to her and say ‘well done’. Church is one place we might sill find Jesus.
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Comment by Helen
1.35 pm on 22 Feb 2007
without the church there is no Jesus, and without Jesus there is no church.
This seems a bit extreme to me given that a) ‘the church’ did not exist when Jesus was around and b) he seemed happy to hang out with people who were too ostracized by religious Jews to be part of whatever equivalent religious community existed when Jesus was here [physically].
I imagine Jesus on a cold rainy sunday in London, would walk into the dead local anglican church and sit next to the 80 year lady, whose whole life had been lived around a rhythmn of worship, who quitely and completely unknown had done more mission through her faith through that dead church, than most people who talked about and aspired to mssion. I imagine he would turn to her and say ‘well done’.
I expect so, but I think he might well also have said ‘well done’ to a bunch of other people on his way to church, who don’t think of themselves as religious or go to church. Maybe because they had ‘loved their neighbor’ as well as most of the people who do go to church.
Of course you’re free to disagree :-)
Church is one place we might still find Jesus.
Agreed.
Probably the best way to know what people mean when they say “I am into Jesus but not into the church”, is to ask what they believe but also look at how they live.
I doubt any of them mean “I am into Jesus the celebrity”. In my experience they mean something along these lines: “I am into Jesus the guy who opposed unjust authority/said be nice to people even if they aren’t nice to you/cared about people no one else cared about/defended people the religious authorities wanted to condemn”.
Do they pick and choose in deciding what Jesus is like, choosing what appeals to them and ignoring the rest? I expect they do, but in my experience, so do Christians. Some Christians know they pick and choose, others have ways of denying that they pick and choose but imo they still do, by concentrating on certain Bible passages and spending little time thinking about others. Like I said this is my opinion only.
Bottom line (imo) – the people who say they like Jesus but not the church like Jesus better than the people they think of/know/see in TV who call themselves Christians.
Comment by Jason Clark
1.40 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Helen, I think we’l have to agree to disagree, I think as per my post when people want to say they are into jesus, and not church, they are not into Jesus at all, and would like the people of the new testament decide not to follow him.
And I prepared to give the rest of my life pursuing Jesus with others in His church, rather than construct him on my own terms, with the church in all it’s mess, rather than some idealised notion of having Jesus without the mess of other people who know him too.
Comment by Jason Clark
1.44 pm on 22 Feb 2007
…and for christian the church is the body of Christ, something dear to us that we find Jesus in in all it’s mess. The notion of a non mediated, non incarnated jesus who is available without the church is the myth of consumer media culture.
And please Helen, see my post, I am the first to talk about how the church gets in the way, I’m not arguing for the church to do nothing and not change it needs to desperately, but so do the people who set themselves apart from it, as if it doesn’t concern them when it comes to Jesus.
Comment by Hearty Heretic
2.08 pm on 22 Feb 2007
“Church is one place we might still find Jesus.” One place is right. There are others, of course. What was it he said? “‘When did we ever see you hungry and feed you, thirsty and give you a drink? And when did we ever see you sick or in prison and come to you?’ Then the King will say, ‘I’m telling the solemn truth: Whenever you did one of these things to someone overlooked or ignored, that was me—you did it to me.”
Comment by Jason
3.05 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Hearty Heretic, indeed. Yet today you’d think church was the last place for Jesus, and certainly to dare to hope that church might a place where jesus is found, and to aspire for it to to do so seems more than a little like swimming against the tide.
Comment by Paul
2.57 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Helen, I take it you are not tempted to write a book called – “they like church but not Jesus” :)
Comment by Helen
3.10 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Hmmm…I probably am, actually – but then I’d probably erase it all again because it was too much of a rant ;-).
Comment by Paul
3.36 pm on 22 Feb 2007
lol, and there was i thinking you could be on to a best seller
Comment by Paul
3.05 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Jase, your post reminds me of “buddy Jesus” – he’s that cool hippy cat who loves people or maybe if you are Dawkins, a bloke that plays poker with the easter bunny, santa and the tooth fairy…
It’ pretty easy to like some dead dude who did good stuff or to go off on a conspiracy theory ‘da vinci code’ esque bent that the church has surpressed the real jesus or use the real jesus has a figure head but a lot harder to decide to follow said dude particularly when he doesn’t ask for a little buy in but every single bit. I can see how people like the idea of Jesus and maybe some of those do want something of a reality/experience/encounter without the church baggage but as you say Jase it becomes pretty clear that the baggage is pretty non-negotiable either – the body of christ – that is broken again and again for the world… and we get invited to participate in that…
awesome and terrorfying!
Comment by Jason
3.10 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Buddy Jesus, that’s the image I should have put into this post, I’ll edit that in :-)…And Paul what happens if we get rid of the church, and just let Jesus meet people, how do they learn about him, and grow to follow him, on their own? Or do they do that with other people? And what do you call a new bunch of non church people trying to help each other follow Jesus, maybe church? And that new group/collection/gaggle will be full of people, just like the rest of people in other churches.
We have too idealised a notion of church, and an idealised version of jesus, that involves not needing to explore that with others in the real world.
Comment by Paul
3.32 pm on 22 Feb 2007
heh always happy to help with the art work inspiration…
you’re right of course we do get on our idealised horses when i read your orginal post i thought yeah i’m guilty of thinking Jesus would never hang out in this or that church – but then again i thought well he hung out in the synagogues of his day, went to the temple etc and was not always mr popular…
so better i think now to strike jesus and say i wouldn’t be seen dead [or alive] in a church like this – Jesus cos he’s a lot more loving and forgiving than me probably would…
And there again is the problem following Jesus does a lot for exposing our own character flaws and commitment phobias – he’s always trying to nail us down and we hate being nailed to anything for anybody…
Comment by Helen
7.04 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Jason, I like how you’re saying it’s not possible to separate off Jesus from other people as if it’s possible to have him by himself and it be just ‘me and Jesus’, our own cozy twosome.
Comment by seekingsomething
7.17 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Hello
I found my way here from Paul’s blog and thought I would be brave and join in, to say that as someone who used to have a faith in God (I think so anyway) but moved away from the Church in my 20s, my take on all this is kind of from a different perspective.
For me, I just don’t see how it’s possible to separate Church and Jesus, and when I lost faith in the Church I lost faith and belief in Him too… For me, Church was a place that just overwhelmed mme with feelings of guilt and being wrong and not fitting in.
Jesus said (apparently)”A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
When I came to a point of realising that the Church was a place where I was able to be loved or to love others, I kind of fell apart and lost my faith at that point. When the Church stopped being authentic to me, so did Jesus.
Ironically, over the years, members of that church that was so rigid back then suggested, in their worry for me, that maybe I should forget the church and just concentrate on Jesus. I didn’t then and I still don’t get that – Jesus went round promoting the Church, didn’t he? How do I develop a relationship with the salesperson if his product is faulty?
I hope this doesn’t sound offensive… I’ve never had anywhere to explore these thoughts before and I’m grateful for the opportunity and don’t want to be too challenging….
Comment by Helen
8.09 pm on 22 Feb 2007
seeking something, I’m sorry that going to church was a negative experience for you.
Please feel free to come and be brave on the blog I host as well, if you like – it’s called Conversation at the Edge. It’s a blog where Christians, atheists and people in-between talk to each other.
Comment by seekingsomething
7.18 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Sorry, in my post above I meant to say:
When I came to a point of realising that the Church was NOT a place where I was able to be loved or to love others, I kind of fell apart and lost my faith at that point. When the Church stopped being authentic to me, so did Jesus.
Comment by Jason Clark
10.18 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Hi seeking something, I’m sorry to hear about your experience and thanks for being brave and vulnerable here. Do check out Helen’s link, and site, she’s a wonderful person, who has been where you are in many ways, I’m sure.
Comment by Helen
11.22 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Thanks Jason.
Comment by Paul
7.06 pm on 23 Feb 2007
Yes I agree with Jase, Helen is an awesome person and she looks after a great site!
Comment by Tim
8.27 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Well, this post seemed to ruffle a few feathers…
Perhaps what people hate about church is the way it’s done. Obviously we can’t do without the church – as soon as ‘two or more’ gather together you have one – and of course it’s going to be filled with people that we love, and love to hate (just like any other committed grouping of people).
For me, I dislike church format – not necessarily the church per se. I find I can do something better with my time on a Sunday morning that sing mind numbing songs and listen for the millionth time that I should be doing such and such – and hear that everyone’s doing ‘all right thanks, see you next week’.
I can’t see the inevitability of your progression of 1) gather together, 2) form a community to grow in faith and then, 3) sing songs and listen sermons. For me, talking to someone and spurring them on to love and good deeds (and them me) is more valuable than anything else. I wish I could find somewhere that that happened; where people were willing to do the hard yards with each other rather than making sure the worship rocks.
So if being part of a church is about attending a normal church Sunday, then I guess that puts me in the category of liking Jesus not the church. Of course, I’m assuming that we’re all talking about Sunday church meetings as being church, as I have no doubt there are thousands of people that gather together because of their faith in all kinds of ways but would never dream of being a formalised entity called church.
Comment by Helen
8.40 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Tim, I also prefer formats where there is two-way conversation. I think there may be churches whose meetings are more that way than what I’ve experienced.
Do you sometimes get together with other people who like Jesus, in ways not traditionally referred to as ‘church’? Do you do joint projects together? Do you get together to have two-way conversations which spur both of you on to love and good deeds?
Comment by Jason Clark
10.16 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Hi Tim, I never made any such progression that you outline?, or suggested church was about sunday services. I just wondered where did you get that from what I wrote? It does seem that anyone who suggested the need for church is assumed to be someone who wants a sunday service. Sunday services as the measure of church must be the lowest and most shallow measure surely either by people for or against church?
Comment by Tim
10.00 am on 23 Feb 2007
Helen – we’re trying to do something small at the moment, get together for breakfast on a Saturday morning, have communion and have a go at spending time to build relationships. Most of the people involved work with local charities in all sorts of roles, so there doesn’t seem to be much impetus behind ‘lets do something like this together’. Most of us still go to other churches – which is what the get together is about – trying to find the thing we all feel lacking in the traditional form.
Jason – I guess I probably unconsciously inferred this from a few sermons I’ve downloaded of yours in the past – that the church takes the form it does when a group of people get together because of their faith in God (I’ve probably got that completely wrong, so sorry for the wrong inference). You’re completely right; if the Sunday service is the sum of the church then we’re all screwed. Conversely though, if I find a gathering of people that spurs me on etc, it would be foolish of me to think that what we did collectively was the epitome of a display of collective relationship with God. Wouldn’t it be great if the members of a church could feel free enough to discover how they best encourage each another and not feel fragmented as a body constantly comparing themselves to one another? This is not a call for individualism, but simply seeking a climate that allows/trusts people as individuals and collectively to work out their salvation with fear and trembling (and not because I’ve gone and done such and such mission trip, served tea and coffee and shook peoples hands at the door).
Comment by Jason
10.20 am on 23 Feb 2007
Indeed tim. You will here me argue frequently that Christians who think the epitome of being missional is giving up a sunday service is shallow and superficial. Vibrant faith communities in history have been ones that gathered to confess and worship a shared faith that transcended their differences, in fact the ability to gather and have something in common bigger than them marked them out as missional. Then they disperse into their communities home, family and work, and gather again to go out again.
You can’t have mission without gathering as a community to share and learn and confess and profess together, and you can’t do that without being out engaged in mission.
So often the impulse to mission collapses into the abandonment of all gathering, and leads to more individualistic consumption of church, either just the few friend I have in the pub or on my ipod, and think that we are being more missional by doing so.
And by gathering I am not prescribing a time or place or format…but the notion of gathering with people different to me, to be known, and know others, and to share my faith and learn together and be equipped for mission.
Comment by Helen
11.41 am on 23 Feb 2007
Tim, that sounds like a pretty good way to address what you feel is missing in your own churches.
You could also see if people in your own churches want to set up a group like that. Maybe it does work for some people that is through one church. (If a person is very involved in leadership in a church that might be all they have time for anyway) Speaking for myself though, I always found that it worked best not to try to find everything in one church. One of my favorite things when I was going to church twice a week was a parachurch organization. I would say this organization had a good relationship with local churches because it encouraged people to get involved in their local churches. But it wasn’t connected with any local church.
I know from personal experience that the more I got involved helping as a volunteer, the more connected I felt at church. So I guess it figures that when I stepped down my involvement I felt less connected and less incentive to go. But I had to step it down because I felt it was wrong to be a volunteer with the level of doubts about my faith which I had developed.
What I don’t want to do is stop engaging with people [different from me], because as Jason has pointed out, that is at the heart of what is worthwhile. And I completely understand your frustration with forms of getting together where you don’t feel you really engaging with people meaningfully.
Comment by Paul
7.22 pm on 23 Feb 2007
Hi Tim, you are not the only one to dislike singing songs, heretical as that view can be at times. I think the church is at its best when it is a hub that allows us to connect with Jesus and each other and encourages mission and at its worst when it tries to pass itself off as the fulfillment of kingdom life.
Without church we would never have got to have met and got to be friends :)
For what its worth i try and use songs as a spiritual discipline – to help wean me off a church that i want mentality and sometimes they are actually ok/helpful then maybe i find the idea of singing when taken as a concept ;)
Comment by Simon S
9.42 pm on 22 Feb 2007
The church / Jesus issue is always a big one.
seekingsomething 7.17 pm said church was negative experience, that’s very sad that you experienced bad things. I’m really sorry about that. Unfortunately the ‘church’ is full of people who are not perfect (although some people think they are) and often they’re not the people you want to be friends with. In the church I’m in people make mistakes and get things wrong (even the pastor :-) sometimes), I have sometimes upset other people without meaning to, but in the end I can see Jesus working out in other people’s lives and that gives me hope in my faith.
Defining a church as a community of people, different size communities have different purposes. I’m trying to think about small groups within a larger church and a congregation. An analogy is you can’t discuss the football game while you’re at the match as 40,000 other people are shouting their heads off, but you can when you’re down the pub later with 5 or 6 mates.
Personally I really don’t like singing worship songs in a small group of 5 to 10 it sounds totally naff, but get 200 and I can sing like I really mean it. On the other hand a group of 5 to 10 is much better to talk about Jesus and maybe collectively get involved in some beneficial service to others. And when I’m on my own I can talk to Jesus about what’s happening – stuff that maybe I wouldn’t want anyone else to hear.
As they grow from small groups, churches accumulate structure because that’s what people instinctively need, then suddenly bam!!, you get bureaucracy (child protection policies and risk assessment stuff and finances) and suddenly there’s all this structure which can keep you away from Jesus if you are not careful.
I think what I’m trying to say is that I think everyone who is a Christian should be in a church (ie within a group of Christians). Some people cannot cope with a large group and so a small group is much better for them.
Comment by Jason Clark
10.24 pm on 22 Feb 2007
Simon S: thanks for your take and experience. Church is painful for many of us, yet it is the hope for us, and the place where we encounter Jesus.
Any group, that has anything of value at the centre of it, and has more than just me in it, will test me to the limits, let me down and hurt me. That’s what people do.
I’ll be the first to talk about how church needs to change, but I am not ready to go the whole hog and to dump it, for the reason I put in this post at the start.
Comment by colin
12.12 am on 23 Feb 2007
Thank you for this post and expressing these thoughts. It is interesting to read the gospel accounts and just how finicky people were in regards to Jesus. Chapter 6 of the Gospel of John has always been quite a startling, yet instructive, description of Jesus’ ministry. At the beginning of the Chapter, people, including His disciples were revelling in the impressive “Feeding of the Five Thousand”, to the point where they “were intending to take Him by force, to make Him king”.
The remainder of the chapter documents Jesus apparently making it harder and harder for people to want to follow Him. Finally towards the end of the chapter it states, “As a result of this [teaching] many of His disciples withdrew [abandonned Him], and were not walking with Him anymore.”
I wonder if Jesus commitment to His Church (His Bride) is one of those teachings that would similarly alienate many of His contemporary followers.
Comment by Helen
11.59 am on 23 Feb 2007
Jason I see two significant tensions brought out in your post and comments (at least):
first, the tension between the Jesus who cares about us and the Jesus who challenges us. Who is all one Jesus and so it’s not ok to try to divide him up into bits and only keep the bits which appeal to us.
second, the tension of the already but not-yet of Jesus’ followers. When the not-yet gets to us it’s tempting to want to run away and see if we can find Jesus alone somewhere.
For various reasons I have decided (as you know) that I can’t be part of a physical local community called ‘church’ right now. However, I continue to be interested in engaging with Jesus’ followers (evidently) in a variety of non-structured/a-traditional/online environments. In fact I believe more than ever that the way to find Jesus is to go engage with people. I think the statement “Whenever two or three are gathered together in my name” is a very powerful one and doesn’t just refer to structured traditional gatherings which are formally dedicated to him.
And to my knowledge you’ve never pushed a particular interpretation of ‘church’ so I can understand your frustration with people who presuppose a particular interpretation and then reject everything called ‘church’ without even finding out if their interpretation fits.
Comment by Jason
12.05 pm on 23 Feb 2007
Thanks Helen, that’s a good summation of the disucssion, and my thoughts certainly.
Comment by Helen
1.08 pm on 23 Feb 2007
thanks Jason.
I think I should have said the first tension is between the Jesus who comforts us and the Jesus who challenges us, not the Jesus who cares and challenges.
Because challenging someone is a form of caring, actually.
Comment by steven hamilton
1.30 pm on 23 Feb 2007
thank you jason…i hear you echo and resonate with the powerful words of the apostle Paul from Ephesians in terms of Christ and the Church. i also see the beauty of a pastors heart and passion welling up….may God bless it
Comment by fernando
4.17 pm on 23 Feb 2007
My biography gives the best example I can think of. Through my teens I was into Jesus but not the church, which actually meant I was into the appearance of spirituality with no real substance. When I started going to church I also started to take Jesus serious and make some sacrifices.
Of course, I also made a whole lot of cultural adaptations that soon made me less missionally effective, but that’s a whole other story.
Regardless, I do feel like it is rightheaded to question and interogate the into jesus but not the church phenom.
Comment by James Prescott
12.01 pm on 27 Feb 2007
I find it to be so true that people somehow get more interested in ‘doing church’ than in Jesus. People can get so caught up in church activites and the fellowship that we forget why we’re there.
It’s been said so many times, yet we keep forgetting ‘the heart of worship’ – it’s all about Jesus. His glory, His name, His fame. Fellowship and service are all important parts of church, but Jesus is the core that holds it all together – or at least, it should be.
It’s almost a form of legalism. Forgetting the real heart of the gospel and concentrating on ‘doing stuff’. You can easily forget the real reason you’re there, you’re so caught up in the business of doing church. Then it can become about you and building your own ‘kingdom’ or power-base in the church, and getting security from what you do rather than from Jesus. It’s definitely a road best left untravelled, but it’s easy to be led into it.
Everything we do in church and indeed in life, we do ulitmately for Jesus. It’s all about Him. Let’s never get so caught up in our own agendas (including church agendas) that we forget that.
Comment by Pastors Wife
8.56 pm on 28 Feb 2007
“Everything we do in church and indeed in life, we do ulitmately for Jesus. It’s all about Him. Let’s never get so caught up in our own agendas (including church agendas) that we forget that.”
James, I agree with what you have written, and I’m trying to do it all for Jesus. I’m a pastors wife, and feel like I’ve had the church up to here – at times I could quite easily walk away from it all, and just “be” with Jesus. Church agendas are difficult, but we must remember that some good does come out of some of those agendas – granted not so good things come from them as well.
I think the Bride of Christ is finding herself on an interesting journey at the moment, and I really think that church as we know it is on a bit of a wake up call.
I’ve been following this thread quite closely with Andrew Jones’ post on Leaving Church (16th February 07). Both have been on interesting reading.
God has had my husband and I on a very exciting, yet at times difficult, journey over the past four years, where we have totally re-thought our faith, the church etc. The future looks exciting, for us it will still involve ministry and church but not in the way we currently know it.
If I’m really honest right now I would probably say that I like Jesus, but not church, but I’m not ready to give up on her yet. Parts of her are dying, but there is still life in her – and a lot of new life.
Comment by royd
1.50 am on 3 Mar 2007
It feels to me like there are two related questions we need to ask when someone talks about liking Jesus but not the church…
Which Jesus? Certainly if we look at a variety of different people they will define “Jesus” in differing ways. He may be Che Jesus, capitalist Jesus, meek and mild Jesus, stern Jesus, or even rockstar Jesus. One of the problems of being into Jesus but not the church is that there is no mechanism for correction if the picture of Jesus is only a mirror of one’s own world view.
What is “church?” Is it the western institution shaped by the cultural situation of the US in the mid 20th Century? Is it a bounded set inclosed by a a set of theological propositions with which one must agree to be in? Is it some mystical union? Is it a group of folk trying to do their best to work towards the kindom of God on earth? The way this question is answered is critical.
Personally, I do not believe it is possible to be a real follower of Jesus outside of the “church.” For me, faith, while personal, is always exercised in community or it is worthless. Communal worship, communal service, communal accountability all must be there or faith is smoke in the wind.
Comment by Ruth Foy
11.23 pm on 14 Mar 2007
I too find church difficult and sometimes a hindrance rather than a help. I struggle with the superficiality of church services etc. but I keep remembering a trip to Laos and encounter with the underground church I had. In the midst of their persecution they realised the importance of gathering together risking all to do it. They needed each other and it was life and death stuff – no academic discussions there about big church versus small groups etc.
Could it be we don’t know how important it is because the importance hasn’t been tested here yet? We still have the luxury of making a choice.
Comment by Helen
1.10 am on 15 Mar 2007
Ruth, I haven’t been to church in a country like that but it seems to me that when just showing up at church involves great risk and sacrifice, that would change the whole dynamic of what goes on there.
Comment by Caroline
5.08 pm on 15 Mar 2007
It’s the word ‘They’ in the title that makes me think.
Comment by Ruth Foy
11.19 am on 16 Mar 2007
Helen, I think you’re right. There were no sermons, lecturing or people saying “How are you – great” then walking past you! They lived and breathed their relationship with Jesus. He was the reason that they were there and they met to share Him with each other and really encourage each other to keep going.
Jason I really agree with your comments about the old lady in the church. I think we have all met people like that and to me that is a more authentic expression of the life of Jesus – a life quietly but well lived for Jesus. This is the opposite of what is promoted by the big evangelical churches where we all encouraged to go on course after course to “equip” us and where big events are valued over dailing being Jesus to people.
Comment by Ruth Foy
11.21 am on 16 Mar 2007
Helen, I think you’re right. There were no sermons, lecturing or people saying “How are you – great” then walking past you! They lived and breathed their relationship with Jesus. He was the reason that they were there and they met to share Him with each other and really encourage each other to keep going.
Jason I really agree with your comments about the old lady in the church. I think we have all met people like that and to me that is a more authentic expression of the life of Jesus – a life quietly but well lived for Jesus. This is the opposite of what is promoted by the big evangelical churches where we all encouraged to go on course after course to “equip” us and where big events are valued over daily being Jesus to people.
Comment by Helen
12.55 pm on 16 Mar 2007
Thanks Ruth.
You might like Off The Map’s “Ordinary Attempts” blog – it’s all about being Jesus to people, in ways which might seem small and ordinary but we believe they count to Jesus (since he said, according to the Bible, “if you give a cup of cold water because you’re my follower, you won’t lose your reward”)
Comment by imparare
7.12 am on 15 Apr 2007
Interesting comments.. :D
Comment by Jonathan
6.47 am on 16 Apr 2007
Jason,
Interesting thoughts, but I think you’ll be surprised by Dan’s work. The Jesus that Dan talks about and what I think he is trying to communicate is that they want the Jesus that loves. They get that. They want to know the Jesus that reflects the Father, that resonates real. I don’t think they are afraid of spirituality, sacrifice, even monasticism. They just don’t want the B.S. attached to all the historical church.
I think it is also important to create a distinction between the church and the historical church (christendom). They don’t want the fake interpretation of what they’ve been given. They are too smart. They have the internet, blogs, videos, media, all ready to inform them about what is fake. When they see Jesus, feeding someone in the park, loving his neighbor, finding forgiveness and wholeness in the brokenness, they want that.
My best to you.
Comment by Jason
7.43 am on 16 Apr 2007
Also Jonathan, your route to Jesus gets me nervous, it’s for the people in the world who have internet access, and you tube, whereas most of the world still doesn’t…
Comment by Jonathan
4.27 pm on 16 Apr 2007
I’m sure you would agree that you know I’m speaking of a Western centric world. I don’t think you would try an pigeon hole everyone into one statement. We speak of who we know. And I know American youth. You know European ones. This is partly how their ideals are formed. Nor did I say that it is the only way.
The Internet, as one tool, has allowed those who can access it, the space to really check things out. It has empowered them to find what is real, to a certain extent. The emerging church is the reflection of that. It has allowed people to hear from pastors who have a different conversation, even though they live half way across the world, or country.
The problem I see here in the states is that those they see in power are concerned with politics more than the cross. The youth care about politics but more from a social-justice standpoint. This sacrificial living is very in line with the cross and learning how to love.
My hope is that you do see these people, that you do find those who are interested. Maybe its just different here in the states.
Comment by Jason
7.42 am on 16 Apr 2007
I did say I wasn’t reviewing Dan’s book, just taking the notion of whether people like Jesus and not the church, and I am sure that the church gets in the way of Jesus lots of the time…no argument from me there.
But certainly in our european context, I think people like the idea of liking Jesus, but the Jesus that wants them to follow him, give up all and take up their cross, is not the Jesus they like at all.
They can consume the idea of Jesus via the internet, videos, but I’ve yet to see them follow him, at least where I live. There is a real problem of the church getting in the way of Jesus, and of people stripping Jesus away from the church and consuming him, in idealism, without discipleship. At least I think there is.
Comment by Helen
11.05 am on 16 Apr 2007
Questions:
Do people outside the church have more trouble with the idea of discipleship than people inside the church? Do outsiders equate the church with ‘discipleship’?
These would both need to be true, wouldn’t they, to substantiate the idea that people avoid the church in order to avoid discipleship?
When Jesus said the way to life is narrow I think he was probably talking about discipleship and I don’t think he was drawing a neat divide at the church doors. I think he was saying that to everyone, whether professed follower or not. Since, does the temptation ever go away, to be self-centred and aim for the easiest Christian life it seems possible to get away with?
I guess it seems unfair to me to point fingers at people outside the church and say “they don’t want discipleship” when that’s also an issue inside the church – because it’s an issue inside every human being.
(Just as it would be unfair of outsiders to point at Christians and say “they have this problem” if it’s equally present outside the church)
Comment by Jason
11.11 am on 16 Apr 2007
Hi Helen, I think people in the church have as many problems with discipleship as those outside.
I wasn’t pointing fingers at people outside the church, I mentioned several times that the church gets in the way of people and jesus (and I wonder why you think I was doing otherwise???), but I was trying to address the notion that people are really into Jesus and not the church.
I remain convinced that most people (in western europe), are not into Jesus at all, except the idea of the celebrity Jesus, and the one to provide what we want, not the one to be a disciple of.
Comment by Helen
1.55 pm on 16 Apr 2007
Jason, thanks for your response.
I didn’t think you were doing otherwise, sorry if that’s the way my comments came across.
The more I think about this the more I disagree with discussing Celebrity Jesus and Meet My Needs Jesus as if they are particularly problems of people outside the church – which I think is the necessary implication of saying these beliefs are why many people who say they like Jesus won’t join the church.
We can agree to disagree, if that’s where we’re at; I’m fine with that. If we do disagree then maybe it’s at least partly because we live on different continents and know different insiders and outsiders.
Comment by Jason
2.15 pm on 16 Apr 2007
Hi Helen, I must be slow today, I’m still not sure what your wanting to agree to disagree with! :-)
I did frame the post, as a critique of the notion, that people outside the church are into Jesus and not church…I didn’t frame it in comparison with people within the church, that is a much wider discussion, and a valuable one, but not one I made!
So I never said it was particular to people outside the church :-)
Comment by Helen
5.35 pm on 16 Apr 2007
Jason, if anyone is misunderstanding it’s probably me.
At this point I think I’ll quit trying to find something to make you disagree with me about ;-) – thanks for your patience!
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