Comments on: Superficial Church: The Loss of Real Church http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F02%2F06%2Fsuperficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church%2F&seed_title=Superficial+Church%3A++The+Loss+of+Real%26%23160%3BChurch Trying to make safe spaces for diverse and healthy conversations about church. Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:00:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: mavxp http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F02%2F06%2Fsuperficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church%2F&seed_title=Superficial+Church%3A++The+Loss+of+Real%26%23160%3BChurch/comment-page-1/#comment-9227 mavxp Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:51:10 +0000 http://www.jasonclark.ws/2007/02/06/superficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church/#comment-9227 In light of his recent passing. I thought I'd post my favourite Baudrillard quote: "Theory can be no more than this: A trap set in the hope that reality will be naïve enough to fall into it" In light of his recent passing. I thought I’d post my favourite Baudrillard quote:

“Theory can be no more than this: A trap set in the hope that reality will be naïve enough to fall into it”

]]> By: at Jason Clark http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F02%2F06%2Fsuperficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church%2F&seed_title=Superficial+Church%3A++The+Loss+of+Real%26%23160%3BChurch/comment-page-1/#comment-9221 at Jason Clark Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:40:04 +0000 http://www.jasonclark.ws/2007/02/06/superficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church/#comment-9221 [...] wrote a post titled superficial church back in February, based on some reading of Jean Baudrillard. He passed away yesterday, aged 77, [...] [...] wrote a post titled superficial church back in February, based on some reading of Jean Baudrillard. He passed away yesterday, aged 77, [...]

]]> By: The Church and Post-modern Culture at Jason Clark http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F02%2F06%2Fsuperficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church%2F&seed_title=Superficial+Church%3A++The+Loss+of+Real%26%23160%3BChurch/comment-page-1/#comment-8875 The Church and Post-modern Culture at Jason Clark Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:37:15 +0000 http://www.jasonclark.ws/2007/02/06/superficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church/#comment-8875 [...] and series edited by James K.A. Smith. I was asked to post today, so you can find my piece on Baudrillard, re-posted there [...] [...] and series edited by James K.A. Smith. I was asked to post today, so you can find my piece on Baudrillard, re-posted there [...]

]]> By: steven hamilton http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F02%2F06%2Fsuperficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church%2F&seed_title=Superficial+Church%3A++The+Loss+of+Real%26%23160%3BChurch/comment-page-1/#comment-8681 steven hamilton Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:14:51 +0000 http://www.jasonclark.ws/2007/02/06/superficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church/#comment-8681 thanks dan (32) - so have we come to the end of our own image...or have we come to the point where we take up His anew? i think that is how we 'respond to others in a qualitatively beautiful manner'... love is indeed credible thanks dan (32) – so have we come to the end of our own image…or have we come to the point where we take up His anew? i think that is how we ‘respond to others in a qualitatively beautiful manner’…

love is indeed credible

]]> By: dan brown http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F02%2F06%2Fsuperficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church%2F&seed_title=Superficial+Church%3A++The+Loss+of+Real%26%23160%3BChurch/comment-page-1/#comment-8671 dan brown Thu, 08 Feb 2007 05:01:47 +0000 http://www.jasonclark.ws/2007/02/06/superficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church/#comment-8671 There is really a lot a stake in this presentation and the intrepretation of what Baudrillardian language is trying to acomplish. The idea that the media has influence on our behavior is evident in the consummer oriented society here in the West. On a more personal level (ontologically) this short response simply wants to warn that captalism and consumerism are not the problem that B seems to assert in some of the links I have looked at from this site. The problem is in learning to respond to others in a qualitatively beautiful manner. We need to learn to embrace an ethic that demonstrates and develops excellence. That is practices that develope skills that take time, effort and mentoring to accomplish. Technology has made evident the need to learn better communication techniques in a society that tends toward instant gratification and holds celebrity in high esteem. Ethical excellence is needed in the midst of pressing social and spiritual malaise. Here is a personal example; many e-mails that I receive especially from young people (those in their 20's) use the medium of e-mail to hide or project an image that does not reflect the person they were created to be in the image of God. Through the lack of skill in writing we show anger, frustation and other negative atributes through our poor writing. In general many in the e-mail world have false bravery and boldness. E-mail which is an extension of visual, written (hand dexterity), and the extension of auditory/verbal sensation gets confused and related in ways that continue to promote poor communication instead of having a I/thou or even I/it encounters with love. The e-mailers' would rather communicate via e-mail (a medium that is cooler than face to face dialogue)than learn the skills neccesary to meet via the telephone or face to face. It is difficult for some young people to pick up the phone or meet face to face. Forty years ago Marshall McCullan asserted that we needed to see technolgy as an extension of our creaturely existence. And the technology (the medium being the message) was having a direct effect on our social and spiritual behavior. MM postualated that each individual medium was hot or cool in relation to the prior medium. thus making it easier to see artistic achievment in the previous medium than the present one. Telegraph more warm than telephone, TV cooler than radio. With the advent of cooler mediums we have the sensation or illusion of being involved, although we have a loss of meaning as a result of the medium, we are more involved with the lives of others vicariously but, we have not kept up with the skills necessary to use the medium in an artistic way. My definition of an artistic way is that the message is clear and helps us to experience one another as a family of God. Artistic communication reveals in holistic meaningful way that encourages communion between one another. In other words we are more involved with a cooler medium. A hotter medium requires more involvement to gain a correspondingly equal amount of meaning. For MM this is why TV was creating a global village. It also made it easier for the masses to mix the use of symbols and language and be able to form more segregated groups or tribes. This has led to the effect of making most people very poor at communicating in writing (the skill necesary for e-mail, the skill of letter writing has been pretty much been lost. I am not suggesting that if we regained that skill the problems of technology would be solved. For the church to counter act this effect we need to teach more on how to resolve conflict and teach others to recognize the masks they are hiding behind. Thank you for taking the time to listen to me, it is a privilege to participate. Dan Brown There is really a lot a stake in this presentation and the intrepretation of what Baudrillardian language is trying to acomplish. The idea that the media has influence on our behavior is evident in the consummer oriented society here in the West. On a more personal level (ontologically) this short response simply wants to warn that captalism and consumerism are not the problem that B seems to assert in some of the links I have looked at from this site. The problem is in learning to respond to others in a qualitatively beautiful manner. We need to learn to embrace an ethic that demonstrates and develops excellence. That is practices that develope skills that take time, effort and mentoring to accomplish. Technology has made evident the need to learn better communication techniques in a society that tends toward instant gratification and holds celebrity in high esteem. Ethical excellence is needed in the midst of pressing social and spiritual malaise. Here is a personal example; many e-mails that I receive especially from young people (those in their 20’s) use the medium of e-mail to hide or project an image that does not reflect the person they were created to be in the image of God. Through the lack of skill in writing we show anger, frustation and other negative atributes through our poor writing. In general many in the e-mail world have false bravery and boldness. E-mail which is an extension of visual, written (hand dexterity), and the extension of auditory/verbal sensation gets confused and related in ways that continue to promote poor communication instead of having a I/thou or even I/it encounters with love. The e-mailers’ would rather communicate via e-mail (a medium that is cooler than face to face dialogue)than learn the skills neccesary to meet via the telephone or face to face. It is difficult for some young people to pick up the phone or meet face to face. Forty years ago Marshall McCullan asserted that we needed to see technolgy as an extension of our creaturely existence. And the technology (the medium being the message) was having a direct effect on our social and spiritual behavior. MM postualated that each individual medium was hot or cool in relation to the prior medium. thus making it easier to see artistic achievment in the previous medium than the present one. Telegraph more warm than telephone, TV cooler than radio. With the advent of cooler mediums we have the sensation or illusion of being involved, although we have a loss of meaning as a result of the medium, we are more involved with the lives of others vicariously but, we have not kept up with the skills necessary to use the medium in an artistic way. My definition of an artistic way is that the message is clear and helps us to experience one another as a family of God. Artistic communication reveals in holistic meaningful way that encourages communion between one another. In other words we are more involved with a cooler medium. A hotter medium requires more involvement to gain a correspondingly equal amount of meaning. For MM this is why TV was creating a global village. It also made it easier for the masses to mix the use of symbols and language and be able to form more segregated groups or tribes. This has led to the effect of making most people very poor at communicating in writing (the skill necesary for e-mail, the skill of letter writing has been pretty much been lost. I am not suggesting that if we regained that skill the problems of technology would be solved. For the church to counter act this effect we need to teach more on how to resolve conflict and teach others to recognize the masks they are hiding behind. Thank you for taking the time to listen to me, it is a privilege to participate. Dan Brown

]]> By: bryan riley http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F02%2F06%2Fsuperficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church%2F&seed_title=Superficial+Church%3A++The+Loss+of+Real%26%23160%3BChurch/comment-page-1/#comment-8664 bryan riley Wed, 07 Feb 2007 14:47:42 +0000 http://www.jasonclark.ws/2007/02/06/superficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church/#comment-8664 Perhaps this explains why we miss all the simple, obvious Truths about God like "God gives" and "Jesus loves me" and drive instead for the deeper, more inane "truths," and separate ourselves from others who have yet to see them. We are trading in Reality for a lesser version, self-created, and, in the end simply worshiping ourselves, the created, rather than the Creator. Perhaps this explains why we miss all the simple, obvious Truths about God like “God gives” and “Jesus loves me” and drive instead for the deeper, more inane “truths,” and separate ourselves from others who have yet to see them. We are trading in Reality for a lesser version, self-created, and, in the end simply worshiping ourselves, the created, rather than the Creator.

]]> By: Makeesha http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F02%2F06%2Fsuperficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church%2F&seed_title=Superficial+Church%3A++The+Loss+of+Real%26%23160%3BChurch/comment-page-1/#comment-8655 Makeesha Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:03:04 +0000 http://www.jasonclark.ws/2007/02/06/superficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church/#comment-8655 I think you did just fine explaining everything :) I still think it's ironic ;) I think you did just fine explaining everything :) I still think it’s ironic ;)

]]> By: Jason http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F02%2F06%2Fsuperficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church%2F&seed_title=Superficial+Church%3A++The+Loss+of+Real%26%23160%3BChurch/comment-page-1/#comment-8653 Jason Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:15:19 +0000 http://www.jasonclark.ws/2007/02/06/superficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church/#comment-8653 Makeesha (27): And maybe a seperate post on the nature philosophy and is it helpful to anyone, rather than justifying it here :-) Makeesha (27): And maybe a seperate post on the nature philosophy and is it helpful to anyone, rather than justifying it here :-)

]]> By: Jason http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F02%2F06%2Fsuperficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church%2F&seed_title=Superficial+Church%3A++The+Loss+of+Real%26%23160%3BChurch/comment-page-1/#comment-8652 Jason Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:14:00 +0000 http://www.jasonclark.ws/2007/02/06/superficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church/#comment-8652 Makeesha (27): People certainly do find this baffling as do I, and it is irrelveant if all it remains is talk. I hoped that the summary might help with the overanalysiing, I found Baudrillard helpful in that sense. So you comment was ironic :-) It certainly can be critiqued, I hope you didn't think it couldn't. I think it was the suggestion of big words that might have given me a sense that you thought academic reflection was superficial ;-) I'm sure I could have worked harder to translate the thoughts into the 'so what' arena, help me with that Makeesha. Makeesha (27): People certainly do find this baffling as do I, and it is irrelveant if all it remains is talk. I hoped that the summary might help with the overanalysiing, I found Baudrillard helpful in that sense. So you comment was ironic :-)

It certainly can be critiqued, I hope you didn’t think it couldn’t. I think it was the suggestion of big words that might have given me a sense that you thought academic reflection was superficial ;-)

I’m sure I could have worked harder to translate the thoughts into the ’so what’ arena, help me with that Makeesha.

]]> By: Makeesha http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2007%2F02%2F06%2Fsuperficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church%2F&seed_title=Superficial+Church%3A++The+Loss+of+Real%26%23160%3BChurch/comment-page-1/#comment-8651 Makeesha Tue, 06 Feb 2007 19:06:44 +0000 http://www.jasonclark.ws/2007/02/06/superficial-church-the-loss-of-real-church/#comment-8651 Jason - I don't think it's superficial, I don't think I said that. and I love big words, I was being a little tongue in cheek because sometimes I get a chance to see the church conversation from the pov of the "other" and it makes me feel a little sheepish about my own pontificating. I also just found it a bit odd that someone is critical of something that in actuality, he's doing himself. I also don't think it's irrelevant NECESSARILY. Although I think this type of discourse can quickly become irrelevant. I do think that this type of assessment runs the risk of falling into the same trap it's criticizing...over thinking, not enough doing, creating a utopia that cannot and will not ever exist...etc. I also grow weary - esp. lately - of hyper criticism, over analyzing and standing on a high hill overlooking everyone and everything "down there" (I've done it and still do on occasion and find it the most repulsive part of me). Which is, as I gather, part of what this issue is speaking to...ironic I think. I'm not afraid of a little academic analysis and I fully understand Jason that that's what this is. But just because it's academic doesn't mean it can't be critiqued by the non academic - don't you think? Jason – I don’t think it’s superficial, I don’t think I said that. and I love big words, I was being a little tongue in cheek because sometimes I get a chance to see the church conversation from the pov of the “other” and it makes me feel a little sheepish about my own pontificating.

I also just found it a bit odd that someone is critical of something that in actuality, he’s doing himself.

I also don’t think it’s irrelevant NECESSARILY. Although I think this type of discourse can quickly become irrelevant. I do think that this type of assessment runs the risk of falling into the same trap it’s criticizing…over thinking, not enough doing, creating a utopia that cannot and will not ever exist…etc.

I also grow weary – esp. lately – of hyper criticism, over analyzing and standing on a high hill overlooking everyone and everything “down there” (I’ve done it and still do on occasion and find it the most repulsive part of me). Which is, as I gather, part of what this issue is speaking to…ironic I think.

I’m not afraid of a little academic analysis and I fully understand Jason that that’s what this is. But just because it’s academic doesn’t mean it can’t be critiqued by the non academic – don’t you think?

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