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	<title>Comments on: The Evangelical&#160;Universalist</title>
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		<title>By: deadedith</title>
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		<dc:creator>deadedith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2006 01:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Robert - I really can&#039;t do any better than some of the answers in previous posts. 
One reason why I would feel comfortable with any theory or system is it&#039;s explanatory power. (BTW, when I say &#039;comfortable&#039; I mean it in a comprehensive sense - intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, something that grabs the whole person) I admit that for ME (and I am NOT flaming you Reformed folk!!) a strict reformed position was a source of such anguish on all levels that I could barely function. It simply did not provide an explanation for the very wide variety of experiences and other more philosophical issues I was struggling with. Well, I am not going to take up anyone&#039;s time with my personal struggles; suffice it to say that the Universalism I now embrace allows me to experience the love of God flooding my heart (Romans 5) and is bearing fruit in my life on many levels. Not least of which, discussing Xty with people I work with.
Sorry to disappoint you, Robert - my point in being here is to remind us  that we all understimate the Love of God. I will leave the exegetical wrangling to those more qualified.
I am willing to discuss philosophical issues, however, but perhaps that is not a real factor in this particular blog.
Blessings on you.
Dave</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert &#8211; I really can&#8217;t do any better than some of the answers in previous posts.<br />
One reason why I would feel comfortable with any theory or system is it&#8217;s explanatory power. (BTW, when I say &#8216;comfortable&#8217; I mean it in a comprehensive sense &#8211; intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, something that grabs the whole person) I admit that for ME (and I am NOT flaming you Reformed folk!!) a strict reformed position was a source of such anguish on all levels that I could barely function. It simply did not provide an explanation for the very wide variety of experiences and other more philosophical issues I was struggling with. Well, I am not going to take up anyone&#8217;s time with my personal struggles; suffice it to say that the Universalism I now embrace allows me to experience the love of God flooding my heart (Romans 5) and is bearing fruit in my life on many levels. Not least of which, discussing Xty with people I work with.<br />
Sorry to disappoint you, Robert &#8211; my point in being here is to remind us  that we all understimate the Love of God. I will leave the exegetical wrangling to those more qualified.<br />
I am willing to discuss philosophical issues, however, but perhaps that is not a real factor in this particular blog.<br />
Blessings on you.<br />
Dave</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
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		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 15:59:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Dave,
How do you deal with those &quot;problem passages that I brought up above (107)?  Those are challenging for the universalist case, I believe....
Robert</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave,<br />
How do you deal with those &#8220;problem passages that I brought up above (107)?  Those are challenging for the universalist case, I believe&#8230;.<br />
Robert</p>
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		<title>By: deadedith</title>
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		<dc:creator>deadedith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 04:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m new to this discussion, but I have enjoyed it immensely and profited by it as well. This seems like a welcoming space with valuable contributions.
I have read Talbot&#039;s and Gregory&#039;s books and experienced a tectonic shift in my worldview - with this difference, that the earthquake rattled everything INTO place! Many of the questions I had struggled with have found a very lovely resolution in the view presented by those two authors; I had come to many of the same answers myself - though far less educated answers, to be sure.
 I was, admittedly, ripe for the universalist message.  Starting off pentecostal in my teens, then moving into more mainstream Presbyterianism, then wrestling with the big challenge of Calvinism . With each of those approaches I tried to &#039;live the question&#039; - take the approach seriously and see how it worked. Eventually, as with Kuhn&#039;s &#039;normal science&#039;, each approach began to show weaknesses, lack of vision, logical incoherency - in short, I kept getting forced by living and thinking and scriptural study into (for me) a fuller view of God and his loving purposes. 
Well, it has taken me 58 years to get to this place - yeah, I&#039;m a geezer - but I feel I&#039;m home. 
This is not a defense of my position, or an attempt to bring any of you &#039;into the camp&#039; - just more along the lines of &#039;sharing&#039;, and, fwiw, I do have some &#039;street cred&#039; - undergrad degree in philosophy, sometime lecturer, longtime seeker. And, I hope, well within the Christian fold.
I look forward to following this discussion. If I have anything intelligent to add, I&#039;ll raise it up the flagpole and see who salutes!
Dave</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m new to this discussion, but I have enjoyed it immensely and profited by it as well. This seems like a welcoming space with valuable contributions.<br />
I have read Talbot&#8217;s and Gregory&#8217;s books and experienced a tectonic shift in my worldview &#8211; with this difference, that the earthquake rattled everything INTO place! Many of the questions I had struggled with have found a very lovely resolution in the view presented by those two authors; I had come to many of the same answers myself &#8211; though far less educated answers, to be sure.<br />
 I was, admittedly, ripe for the universalist message.  Starting off pentecostal in my teens, then moving into more mainstream Presbyterianism, then wrestling with the big challenge of Calvinism . With each of those approaches I tried to &#8216;live the question&#8217; &#8211; take the approach seriously and see how it worked. Eventually, as with Kuhn&#8217;s &#8216;normal science&#8217;, each approach began to show weaknesses, lack of vision, logical incoherency &#8211; in short, I kept getting forced by living and thinking and scriptural study into (for me) a fuller view of God and his loving purposes.<br />
Well, it has taken me 58 years to get to this place &#8211; yeah, I&#8217;m a geezer &#8211; but I feel I&#8217;m home.<br />
This is not a defense of my position, or an attempt to bring any of you &#8216;into the camp&#8217; &#8211; just more along the lines of &#8217;sharing&#8217;, and, fwiw, I do have some &#8217;street cred&#8217; &#8211; undergrad degree in philosophy, sometime lecturer, longtime seeker. And, I hope, well within the Christian fold.<br />
I look forward to following this discussion. If I have anything intelligent to add, I&#8217;ll raise it up the flagpole and see who salutes!<br />
Dave</p>
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		<title>By: RÃ³gvi Jacobsen</title>
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		<dc:creator>RÃ³gvi Jacobsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I believe also animals and evil beings such as the Devil will be saved. Salvation is by believing in Jesus only (Colossians 1:19-20).

Romans 8:18-23 is my proof:

&quot;In my estimation, all that we suffer in the present time is nothing in comparison with the glory which is destined to be disclosed for us, for the whole creation is waiting with eagerness for the children of God to be revealed. It was not for its own purposes that creation had frustration imposed on it, but for the purposes of him who imposed it - with the intention that the whole creation itself might be freed from its slavery to corruption and brought into the same glorious freedom as the children of God. We are well aware that the whole creation, until this time, has been groaning in labour pains. And not only that; we too, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we are groaning inside ourselves, waiting with eagerness for our bodies to be set free.&quot; (New Jerusalem Bible).

RÃ³gvi</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe also animals and evil beings such as the Devil will be saved. Salvation is by believing in Jesus only (Colossians 1:19-20).</p>
<p>Romans 8:18-23 is my proof:</p>
<p>&#8220;In my estimation, all that we suffer in the present time is nothing in comparison with the glory which is destined to be disclosed for us, for the whole creation is waiting with eagerness for the children of God to be revealed. It was not for its own purposes that creation had frustration imposed on it, but for the purposes of him who imposed it &#8211; with the intention that the whole creation itself might be freed from its slavery to corruption and brought into the same glorious freedom as the children of God. We are well aware that the whole creation, until this time, has been groaning in labour pains. And not only that; we too, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we are groaning inside ourselves, waiting with eagerness for our bodies to be set free.&#8221; (New Jerusalem Bible).</p>
<p>RÃ³gvi</p>
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		<title>By: graham</title>
		<link>http://jasonclark.ws/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fjasonclark.ws%2F2006%2F07%2F15%2Fthe-evangelical-universalist%2F&amp;seed_title=The+Evangelical%26%23160%3BUniversalist/comment-page-3/#comment-5452</link>
		<dc:creator>graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 18:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Has anyone in the UK managed to get hold of a copy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anyone in the UK managed to get hold of a copy?</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory McDonald</title>
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		<dc:creator>Gregory McDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 13:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>To spell out the universalist case from Philippians 2 a little more one should note:

The passage that Paul quotes from the OT is a divine oath from Isa 45 in which YHWH calls all the nations to come to him and be saved. He then swears that every knee will bow and every tongue swear oaths in his name. This is a passage about the salvation of all the gentiles who have survived the judgment. In Philippians 2 Paul expands the horizons of this promise to include not just all the living but all all of the dead (those under the earth). ALL will bow the knee. Notice also that for Paul confessing the Lordship of Christ is a salvific thing (cf. Rom 10). There is nothing in this text about forced submission.

Pax

Gregory</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To spell out the universalist case from Philippians 2 a little more one should note:</p>
<p>The passage that Paul quotes from the OT is a divine oath from Isa 45 in which YHWH calls all the nations to come to him and be saved. He then swears that every knee will bow and every tongue swear oaths in his name. This is a passage about the salvation of all the gentiles who have survived the judgment. In Philippians 2 Paul expands the horizons of this promise to include not just all the living but all all of the dead (those under the earth). ALL will bow the knee. Notice also that for Paul confessing the Lordship of Christ is a salvific thing (cf. Rom 10). There is nothing in this text about forced submission.</p>
<p>Pax</p>
<p>Gregory</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory McDonald</title>
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		<dc:creator>Gregory McDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 13:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Helen and Robert (116, 117)

There is a good case to be made for seeing universal salvation in Philippians 2 (see my book). However, it is not an irresistable case (not much is) - if one is committed to traditional hell then one can always say that some will be forced to bow the knee. However, exegetically the universalist has a much easier time in Philippians 2 than the traditionalist. That said, with some other texts the boot is on the other foot so one cannot gloat. In the end, wider theological considerations come into play and lead people one way or the other. I have no problem with other Christians thinking I am wrong on this. That&#039;s fine by me - after all, I think I must be wrong about quite a few things so best not to get too precious about it.

Pax

Gregory

Pax

Gregory</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helen and Robert (116, 117)</p>
<p>There is a good case to be made for seeing universal salvation in Philippians 2 (see my book). However, it is not an irresistable case (not much is) &#8211; if one is committed to traditional hell then one can always say that some will be forced to bow the knee. However, exegetically the universalist has a much easier time in Philippians 2 than the traditionalist. That said, with some other texts the boot is on the other foot so one cannot gloat. In the end, wider theological considerations come into play and lead people one way or the other. I have no problem with other Christians thinking I am wrong on this. That&#8217;s fine by me &#8211; after all, I think I must be wrong about quite a few things so best not to get too precious about it.</p>
<p>Pax</p>
<p>Gregory</p>
<p>Pax</p>
<p>Gregory</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
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		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 21:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Helen,
Much thanks for the reply.  I have heard the usual arguments on both sides.  again, i don&#039;t know.  I guess I just don&#039;t know much anyhow......sigh! (&quot;don&#039;t know much about algebra.....remember that tune?)
Robert</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helen,<br />
Much thanks for the reply.  I have heard the usual arguments on both sides.  again, i don&#8217;t know.  I guess I just don&#8217;t know much anyhow&#8230;&#8230;sigh! (&#8220;don&#8217;t know much about algebra&#8230;..remember that tune?)<br />
Robert</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
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		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 19:27:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Robert, I&#039;ve heard people say all will bow the knee as stated in Phil 2 but for some it will be an unwilling acknowledgement of a reality they can no longer deny and they will go to hell forever.

So, bowing the knee and confessing Jesus is Lord doesn&#039;t necessarily mean all will be saved, right?

Although - perhaps that &lt;i&gt;was&lt;/i&gt; what the author meant. 

I don&#039;t know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert, I&#8217;ve heard people say all will bow the knee as stated in Phil 2 but for some it will be an unwilling acknowledgement of a reality they can no longer deny and they will go to hell forever.</p>
<p>So, bowing the knee and confessing Jesus is Lord doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean all will be saved, right?</p>
<p>Although &#8211; perhaps that <i>was</i> what the author meant. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know.</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory MacDonald</title>
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		<dc:creator>Gregory MacDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Robert

Great Q. Perhaps we should not think of God&#039;s wrath in terms of his feeling angry towards people (like the Father is a bad-tempered old man). God&#039;s wrath may better be thought of as an activity of God rather than his feelings - his handing people over to experience the consequences of their sin. God&#039;s wrath remains on a person if they remain in their sin and rebellion against God. This does not mean that God does not love them or desire to save them. Indeed, John&#039;s gospel is quite clear that the Father does love and desire to save those upon whom his wrath currently rests. You see the same thing in Eph 2 where Paul speaks of how Christians were once &#039;children of wrath&#039; BUT NOW ...
Christ embodies God&#039;s love for the sinners and his opposition to sin. Also remember that Christ&#039;s mission was not to judge and condemn the world but to save the world (as John also says) and so he embodies the Father&#039;s heart for saving a world under condemnation.

This only begins to suggest an answer to your great question but I hope it sets your own thoughts of in something like a helpful direction.

Pax

Gregory</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert</p>
<p>Great Q. Perhaps we should not think of God&#8217;s wrath in terms of his feeling angry towards people (like the Father is a bad-tempered old man). God&#8217;s wrath may better be thought of as an activity of God rather than his feelings &#8211; his handing people over to experience the consequences of their sin. God&#8217;s wrath remains on a person if they remain in their sin and rebellion against God. This does not mean that God does not love them or desire to save them. Indeed, John&#8217;s gospel is quite clear that the Father does love and desire to save those upon whom his wrath currently rests. You see the same thing in Eph 2 where Paul speaks of how Christians were once &#8216;children of wrath&#8217; BUT NOW &#8230;<br />
Christ embodies God&#8217;s love for the sinners and his opposition to sin. Also remember that Christ&#8217;s mission was not to judge and condemn the world but to save the world (as John also says) and so he embodies the Father&#8217;s heart for saving a world under condemnation.</p>
<p>This only begins to suggest an answer to your great question but I hope it sets your own thoughts of in something like a helpful direction.</p>
<p>Pax</p>
<p>Gregory</p>
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