Rick Warren Plagiarism
26 Apr 2005
Now this is not a rant, nor a baching of Rick Warren (I like the man, and value his impact on the church), but would you all help me with something?
Back in 1992, I heard a prayer made by a pastor in south africa, who was martyred not ling after he made it, read out at a conference at the Vineyard Church, Anaheim, LA. The words are below.
Now Rick Warren has a puspose driven covenenant statement launched with 30,000 people at a stadium, and now online and going all around the world, that they have copyrighted. Is it me or
does it sound like the south african martyrs prayer?
I e-mail pastors.com and got no reply. I guess as much as I like rick Warren, I can’t bare the thought of this inspiring prayer being passed off as his, and I wish they had credited the original source.
But I could be wrong, so take a look, let me know, and if you see a similarity maybe you could gently em-al them too, and ask them to qoute the source.
Here is link to Rick Warren’s covenant statement, and the original prayer is below fro comparison.
———-
A Martyr’s Measure of Commitment
“I am part of the fellowship of the unashamed. The die has been cast. I have stepped over the line. The decision has been made. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. I won’t look back, let up, slow down, back away or be still. My past is redeemed, my present makes sense, my future is secure.
I am finished and done with low living, sight walking, smooth knees, colourless dreams, chained visions, worldly talking, cheap living and warped goals.
My face is set, my gait is fast, my goal is Heaven, my road is narrow, my way is rough, my companions are few, my guide is reliable, my mission is clear. I won’t give up, shut up or let up until I have prayed up and paid up for the cause of Jesus Christ.
I most go till he comes, give till I drop, preach till everyone knows, work till He stops me. And when He comes for His own, He will have no trouble recognizing me because my banner will have been clear!â€
Source – Black Pastor in South Africa, martyred early 1990’s.
28 comments
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Comment by John
10.36 am on 26 Apr 2005
It’s not plagiarism because the texts aren’t the same. Indeed, Warren’s is rather longer, although some sections certainly do sound similar – which suggests that Warren was inspired by this prayer. But neither is a unique example, so they could have no direct connection. I do hope that he replies to you, though.
pax et bonum
Comment by Wes Roberts
1.23 pm on 26 Apr 2005
Jason…I’ve heard over two dozen different pastors lay claim to this prayer…whether they made it…embellished it…borrowed it…whatever. It’s like the story of someone who say next to a Satanist on airplane…I’ve heard that very same story claimed by an amazing number of people…details always the same. When I hear stories like this I always go to http://www.truthorfiction.com. This site is run by a solid Christian brother in Southern California whom I’ve known for over 40 years. He has always had a fascination with “urban legends,” whether out there in “Christian-land” or anywhere else. His group does a good job of chasing down origins of stories…to the truth of the matter.
Comment by Matt Rees
2.23 pm on 26 Apr 2005
i think it’s certainly similar in tone and was, i suspect, the inspiration for Warren, but i don’t think we could call it plagarism. it would be nice if he referenced it somewhere as being inspirational though.
peace.
Comment by Rodney Olsen
3.37 pm on 26 Apr 2005
To take the writings of one person is called plagarism. To take the writings of lots of people is called research. :)
I’ve seen the “Fellowship of the Unashamed” being attributed to various people in the past including a youth pastor and many others. Just Google the words ‘fellowship of the unashamed’ and you’ll get plenty of results.
Comment by Caroline
4.21 pm on 26 Apr 2005
Not sure if I’m about to commit sacrilege, but I just don’t like the prayer! There’s an awful lot of ‘I’ in there, it’s all about what ‘I’ do, lots about how dedicated ‘I’ am; not much about God! No, Mr Warren can have that prayer; I think I’ll just make a mental note to centre my prayers in the future on God at work in me.
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4.34 pm on 26 Apr 2005
Purpose Driven Plagiarism
Jason Clark thinks that Rick Warren may have plagiarized the prayer of a martyred South African pastor. Mercy! Back in 1992, I heard a prayer made by a pastor in south africa, who was martyred not ling after he made it, read out at a conference at the …
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4.34 pm on 26 Apr 2005
Purpose Driven Plagiarism
Jason Clark thinks that Rick Warren may have plagiarized the prayer of a martyred South African pastor. Mercy!Back in 1992, I heard a prayer made by a pastor in south africa, who was martyred not ling after he made it, read out at a conference at the V…
Comment by dave
5.12 pm on 26 Apr 2005
Does anyone else have a problem with people copywriting a prayer?
Comment by Whitewave
5.15 pm on 26 Apr 2005
What about this one:
http://66.137.184.33/magnacharta.asp
?
I once heard my Pastor tell as story about a bunch of birds as if it happened to him and then later learned that it was “off the rack” so to speak. Canned. From a book of sermon illustrations. I don’t think I understand the rules about all that stuff very well, but when I learned that he was misleading us, I felt betrayed and foolish. Don’t know if that counts for anything.
Comment by dh
5.21 pm on 26 Apr 2005
Great point Matt. :) Caroline “”I” think I’ll make a point to center myself on God at work in me
(I indirectly).” Sounds like an oxymoron to me with you using the “I” with regard to Rick’s prayer. “I” think your point Caroline is exactly what the Holy Spirit through Rick is trying to get across to all of us. Thank you Caroline for your insight that happens to be the same across pre, modern and post.
Comment by jonny
5.31 pm on 26 Apr 2005
you can copyright prayers?!!!! – and people are doing it?!!!!
i don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
Comment by jonny
5.32 pm on 26 Apr 2005
you can copyright prayers?!!!! – and people are doing it.
i don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
Comment by Whitewave
5.40 pm on 26 Apr 2005
Yes, dave and Jonny, that does seem kind of absurd to me too. Can you copywrite a dinner menu? A phone book? A Christmas List? Is a will copywritten? Copywrote? Copywrited? &^$@$
I know that the symbol for Despair Inc. is copy-whatevered and there’s a story about it on their site… which I always thought was a joke… Hm.
Comment by John
7.23 pm on 26 Apr 2005
Hang on a second – check for a moment what copyright actually is. *Anything* someone writes is *automatically* copyrighted to them (even in the USA for the past 25 years or so). There is no magical process that you go through to achieve this. So, if you write a prayer then it is automatically copyright to you!
For some people, placing a copyright notice on everything they publish is part of doing business. For others, it isn’t. But both sets have copyright in their writings; the notice is for convenience only (and can have an effect if you decide to sue someone).
pax et bonum
Comment by John
7.24 pm on 26 Apr 2005
P.S. Menus, directories and similar writings are exempt from copyright because there is no creative step. Should have mentioned that. Prayers, however, clearly do contain a creative step and so are copyright to the person who wrote them.
Of course, as Christians, we might like to assign that copyright “upwards”, as it were :-)
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7.44 pm on 26 Apr 2005
Purpose Driven Plagiarism
Jason Clark thinks that Rick Warren may have plagiarized the prayer of a martyred South African pastor. Mercy!Back in 1992, I heard a prayer made by a pastor in south africa, who was martyred not ling after he made it, read out at a conference at the V…
Comment by Whitewave
7.52 pm on 26 Apr 2005
Then what is “public domain”?
Comment by John
11.31 pm on 26 Apr 2005
Public domain is material placed there by the author, who thereby specifically releases the public from any restrictions on copying the material. Material can also arrive in the public domain by being old – most of the world puts copyright at about 50 years, but the USA keeps raising the limit (under pressure from the movie companies, who want to keep earning money from Mickey Mouse!), currently at about 70 years, IIRC.
pax et bonum
Comment by Jonny
8.45 am on 27 Apr 2005
so John, what you saying is that Rick Warren’s covenant statement could have been made public domain if they wanted to? but they have instead decided to declare their ‘copyright’. Why would you want to do that?
Comment by John
9.59 am on 27 Apr 2005
It’s his right to say “don’t copy this”. There’s nothing at all to stop someone else writing a prayer *based* on his, just as his stands in a tradition itself. There’s even nothing stopping someone using it as a prayer – the restriction is on *copying* the text.
pax et bonum
Comment by Jared
9.15 pm on 28 Apr 2005
Has anyone gotten a copyright on the sinners prayer yet? There’s one to make bank on.
Also, “Black Pastor in South Africa, martyred early 1990’s” is not a creditable refference. It tells me nothing.
Comment by filip
11.09 am on 29 Apr 2005
I came across the Warrens text in the 1992 ‘the signature of Jesus’ by Brennan Manning. He makes a reference to a Zimbabwean pastor. And Mannings’ version is a bit longer.
Comment by Jason Clark
11.15 am on 29 Apr 2005
thank filip that would with the when I heard it and the source it was credited to.
Comment by Paul
6.38 am on 1 May 2005
The issue of who wrote it and whether it is inspired, nicked or completetly orginanl to me feels like the side issue – why is Mr Warren doing this, what is the point of him and his large church family taking this pledge- if it inspires, encourages and helps them become better followers of Jesus who go out and bless them I am all for it…
I think most of all both prayers challenged my commitment levels, made me think again of the non-negotiables that I have given God as well as where I more gung ho in word than in deed :)
In that case I guess to me it has to involve a lot of the “I” but I would love it to be and think it should be supported, encouraged and nurtured by the “we”/”us”…
Comment by Michael
11.39 pm on 8 May 2005
Jason-
As best I can tell, neither Warren or the martyr pastor originated the poem. My campus minister in Texas used it in the late 1980s, and I don’t think he wrote it. The original source MAY be Dr. Bob Moorehead. The poem is collected in “Words Aptly Spoken,” under the title “Fellowship of the Unashamed” in Moorehead’s 1995 collection of prayers, homilies, and monologues used in his sermons and radio broadcasts. But before you go on to hold this pastor in high regard, he was forced to retire from his pastoral duties and found guilty of molesting several male churchgoers.
Like you, I respect Rick Warren. He paid a lot of dues in a hard place to plant a church before many knew of him. Yet, I DO mourn the commodification that devours many helpful new ways of speaking the Gospel. I think the Kingdom would be harmed little if the “Christian” music and publishing industries were much smaller.
Comment by Jason Clark
9.10 am on 9 May 2005
I found the qoute attibuted late 1980’s to an african pastor in the Brennan Manning book, mentioned above. That;s the same as the context I heard it qouted in. I;d like to think that was it;s origin :-)
Comment by Beacon2
8.26 pm on 24 May 2005
Bingo! Rodney Olsen. Too many I’s. It’s legalism at its finest- cloaked in piety, obedience, etc., etc. etc.
We visited a church recently where they had printed a copy of it for members to sign (if they chose hah!) and we told them exactly why we wouldn’t sign it!
Comment by Rev. Rick Lindsay
3.22 am on 3 Aug 2005
It is my prayer that I would be found faithful in the Fellowship of the Unashamed – I know JESUS deserves all the credit – none of us do or could earn it.
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