Andrew Jones: The Grilling of Brian McLaren
23 Apr 2005
Andrew Jones: The Grilling of Brian McLaren
On May 9, Brian McLaren, a leader within Emergent Village and identified strongly with the emerging church, has agreed to come on this blog to answer some questions about hell and his controversial book, The Last Word and The Word After That: A Tale of Fatih, Doubt, and a new Kind of Christianity. You can ask Brian your questions and he will be answering throughout the day. I may also interview him at Suddenly Seminary.
Some blogs that are picking up the conversation about Brian and hell:
Theocentric
Theologica
Who else is talking about it? Links please . . .
16 comments
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Comment by rick
3.55 pm on 23 Apr 2005
Jason,
As you know there is really nothing new under the sun. Many Christians have held other views of hell. I haven’t read Brian’s book, but suspect he unpacks the concept of hell and the hebrew understanding along with the greek mythology???
you asked for links. I wrote a meditation about hell, called The Hope of Hel. It is about the third post down on my blog:
http://newlifeemerging.blogspot.com/
Peace,
Rick
Comment by David Loar
8.45 pm on 23 Apr 2005
Under the title “which list am I on?” for April 23 at my blog http://discipledavid.blogspot.com is some comments about Brian and an anecdote from William Sloane Coffin about the difference between people’s “prayer lists” and their shit lists. The way some folks say they’re going to pray for me, I can’t tell the difference!
Comment by Whitewave
9.10 pm on 23 Apr 2005
lol for a long while….
I so needed that laugh. Yeah, I’m printing out the picture. Really, really needed!
I printed out the blurb from that other post the other day and am currently reading it. Not done yet. My best friend Lorica won an advanced copy of the book and so finished it weeks ago and told me what’s goin’ on somewhat.
Hold tight!
We’re in for nasty weather!
…Burnin’ down the house!
I posted something over at Open Source that isn’t getting any helpful response – they’re too busy playing homosexuality football over there. My thingy has to do with Dual vs. Non-Dual Spirituality. The hell issue is really the end of the road for Duality. The exploitation of them at least. Including the exploitation of the Duality of Heaven and Hell! After that, the Way will finally be opened for Non-duality. I can see how it all fits up here in my noodle, the rest is just scribbling. It’s all gonna work. There’s no need for fear. It’s all gonna work out.
Comment by Timothy Wright
10.07 am on 24 Apr 2005
I wouldn’t believe in Jesus if it wasn’t for Hell. I know all you emergent folks like to talk and value dialogue above all most everything else, but sometimes we disagree and have to call it as we see it. I can’t comment on Brians new book. I need to read it myself and think about it and then pray (i find this part hard but need to do it) and comment.
Maybe I am totally wrong about my views on hell, I don’t think so. I thought Jesus was areal loser before I started to follow him. So who knows.
If what every body is saying about this book is so radical, you have to be ready for the stuff to hit the fan, and when it does it isn’t evenly spread out. McLaren as the poster boy for the emergent church will make it very loud and people will draw lines, and all the other stuff. Everybody can’t be right, someone has to be wrong on some account and in some way. Let it begin. I never can forgive people to often.
Tim
Comment by Jason Clark
7.08 pm on 24 Apr 2005
Hi Timothy, I think your right, it would be good to read the book, and us all talk about it, rather that what people think it might say! :-)
Comment by dh
6.03 pm on 25 Apr 2005
“Our perspective on hell must be rethought and revised if it causes us to exalt ourselves, belittle others, withdraw from the world, or passively wait for pie-in-the-sky-sweet-by-and-by.”
This is exactly the overgeneralization by Brian that I talk about all of the time. Not one person who believes in hell or heaven looks at it in these terms. People may overemphesize a certain thing but that is another thing. It is both living for Christ now like Brian says AND the looking to the future for Christ’s return and in that is an excape from hell. There is a balance and a belief in hell doesn’t have to be the overgeneralization that he mentions. I sick and tired of overgeneralizations.
Comment by Whitewave
11.55 pm on 25 Apr 2005
I hear your frustration dh. I too was a bit put off by that generalization. I think it can easily be a straw man which is then knocked down so one feels as if one has accomplished something, when in fact the actual situation hasn’t been touched. I don’t know anyone either who would say they believe that.
However.
I’ve noticed something in the church that those who are fixated on doctrine are always and forever dodging. What people say they believe and what people ACT AS IF THEY BELIEVE are often two different things.
Anyone who has anything substantial to say about heaven vs. hell throughout church history has always ended by setting it up as a motivation to reach the lost with the gospel. No matter which way they fall on the issue. The one who is putting out their proposition is basically saying that THIS is how THEY are motivated. Often it says more about them than it says about God, heaven, hell OR the lost. Even Jonathan Edwards reaped a big harvest and I have no doubt that God will have to set us straight about his heart being in the right place and his keen understanding of the spirit of that age. But this is not that age and we have a right to a keen understanding too.
One of the things that was common in Jesus’ day was the very old (and yet oh, so current) mindset of “Thank you God that I am not a sinner! Please help keep me pure and unaffected by the world.” While few would actually admit to having this attitude, many behave as if they do. And nearly all will speak as if they do if sorely provoked (yeah, me). When this kind of attitude hides within the heart, behavior follows suit. It’s real. It happens. The difference between how Americans behaved after 9/11 and how we behaved when we learned of the AIDS epidemic amongst gay men says it all.
I think one of the things that is distinguishing the emergers is that they weren’t motivated to accept the grace of God this way and they are assuming that others won’t be either. In this age, I think that’s a fair generalization. Most people want something else from God now than to simply reward good behavior and punish bad behavior. God has always been about more than that, so maybe a course correction is in order.
I’ve talked to some people who actually were motivated the reward/punishment way, and while I’m not and I think it’s sad when people are, that’s my leaning. The Bible is full of weird and extreme statements that provoke us in so many ways and people come in a miriad number of different developmental levels and everyone changes from one level to another throughout their lives. If they were in the mode of: “I wanna do what I know is wrong, and I think I can get away with it if I don’t get caught…” or “that guy has ruined me and he doesn’t deserve to live! If God doesn’t make this right, then I will!” they might be reached with the Jonathan Edwards shpiel. Everyone has been there at some time in their life, even though it’s a very immature place to be. People aren’t born mature, and some truly never mature beyond that. The only thing they may ever understand is the big stick.
I don’t want to be motivated this way. I don’t think God want’s us to be motivated this way. I think it’s a bad deal for God, for humans and for the world at large. Therefore I want to mature beyond it. If Brian can help me do that with his work, then God bless him.
Comment by Whitewave
12.48 am on 26 Apr 2005
Now that I read what I said, I see I missed a point. That being motivated the reward/punishment way is not only about being immature, but also about being damaged. One can grow up to believe and behave differently, but become so damaged by trauma that you must go through a process of recovery. Folks with PTSD sometimes have that hurdle.
Comment by Timothy Wright
7.44 am on 26 Apr 2005
The 9/11 thing and the gay men getting aids are two seperate things. While the foreign policy of the US might have contributed to the actions of the individuals of 9/11, the gay men who got aids definetly reap what they sowed. I reap what I sow if I get fat for eating too much. I need to accept responsibility for my own actions. No one made me FAT. I am to blame.
Pure motives, ah a real mirage. Only Jesus can tell us our real motives and we will be dead then. I have never met a person who found out their spouse was cheating on them said, how could you do this to Jesus first.
I share the gospel because: 1. I want too. 2. God wants me to. 3. People need to hear the gospel. I can not figure out which is my top motive at any one time.
I believ in Hell, because Jesus spoke of it more than other person. That may be a bit too simplistic for some.
Comment by Jon
8.29 pm on 29 Apr 2005
Allow me a selfish plug. Brian is coming to Cornerstone Festival this year. So if you want to beat him like a gong… or more likely, enjoy some real great teaching and dialogue… please do come. He was amazingly gracious, as we caught him very late in the game. We also twisted his arm (again, he didn’t make us twist too hard) to get him to do one of our plenary sessions, aka, ‘Community Gatherings.’
We hope we’re not going to hell for having him! LOL!
Comment by Timothy Wright
10.55 pm on 29 Apr 2005
We will have to wait and see won’t we?
Comment by Jon
3.53 pm on 30 Apr 2005
No doubt! Hehehehe…
My personal take on hell is as follows:
1. I do believe some people will spend eternity separated from God. This seems quite evident from Scripture.
2. I don’t believe any of us can “make the call” as to who is taking the down elevator… God makes that call.
3. I don’t believe any of us can truthfully make the call who is taking the up elevator, either. God alone makes that call.
4. I do think a doctrine of hell is important, and perhaps moreso than Brian Mc does. If he’d just consult with me before publishing anything, he could be 100 percent correct about everything all the time… hehehehe.
Comment by Timothy Wright
9.38 pm on 3 May 2005
I think that Jesus tells us the context that he makes that call. Those that know him, and him can’t just be the God of Allah or Buddah. It means knowing Him through the indwelling of His’ Holy Spirit. I think the Bible is very clear on this, maybe too clear for some people and they try to invent other ways that people have done for centuries and will do so until Christ comes again.
Comment by dh
10.42 pm on 3 May 2005
Jon and Timothy, you both made some great points. Jon while I do agree God “makes the call”, I do think the Bible states clearly “who are in and who aren’t”. However, we need to state this with dignity and respect and we must be, with all humility, share the Gospel, in a caring way. Having the attitude that Jesus did the desire that people accept Him and receive eternal life. Like my pastor recently said, “Don’t run people over like a Mack ™ truck and thus push people away from the Gospel.”
Comment by Timothy Wright
8.34 am on 4 May 2005
I totally agree, It is the kindness of God that leads to repentance. It is wish tears and passion that we come before God on behalf of others. People are so precious, every single one who was ever created, from Hitler to my daughter.
Tim
Comment by dh
2.44 pm on 4 May 2005
I liked what you said and to use the tire analogy. Sometimes Christians try to reinvent the wheel when the wheel is right there ready to be used. Wow, wheel the foundation of the car. Being a Jaguar, Kia or whatever is where we as Christians can disagree but sometimes, I say sometimes not all of the time, Emergent tries to reinvent the wheel.
A pastor went to India and a person came forward to accept Christ for many days but never had physical healing. On the last day he decided to come to her and ask why she never got healed. He then prayed and realized that when she was accepting Christ earlier she was inviting Christ in addition to the other gods. So he asked her to lay aside ALL of the gods for Christ. She did that and was instantly healed. We need to realize that there are no other ways to Christ but Christ alone. That is where true healing in everyway begins.
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