Super-Protestants
31 Aug 2004
Drawing heavily on Brian McLaren here, is the emerging church super-protestant? (my conclusion and question not his, and you’ll need to read him to make sure I’m doing him a disservice).
Whilst there was much that was good about the protestant reformation, there are aspects of protestantism that Brian McLaren highlights(Chapter 7 of “A Generous Orthodoxy): (cont below)
1. After protesting catholics protestants protested each other…we are the real reformation, they are sell outs
2. The protestant frenzy created a market economy where christianity was com-modified…purer better, more biblical, more spirit led, more inspired etc.
3. Protestants paid more attention to bible, but used it to prove others as wrong…we know how to access the bible they don’t
Brian makes a plea for us to be post-protestant, and to be pro-tesifiying. In other words instead if defining ourselves by what we aren’t, or don’t want to be, the via negativa and apophatic approach to church, how about pursuing what we are for, the positive and constructive and in that process might be able to realise:
A. We aren’t superior
B. We have a lot to learn from the people we are protesting
C. We can come together not out of protest but together seeking what we are looking for.
So I want to overlay that on the emerging church. We have been too protesting, too market driven, and using our post-modern hermeneutics to say we are in and they (the modern church) is out. But Emergent for me at it’s best is affirming:
i. We are as flawed as those who came before us, and stand on the shoulders of many who suffered and lived out their faith, in ways I couldn’t but in ways I can learn from and affirm. The rest of the church are not all sell outs.
ii. We have a lot to learn from the modern church…I need to read Billy Graham’s biography, John Maxwell’s books, there is much there that I throw away at my peril.
iii. Anglicans, Vineyard, Pentecostal, Emerging Church, micro church, anabaptist, etc can come together, and ask how do we move ahead, what are we about, and learn from each other.
This is one of the things I have enjoyed most about Emergent over the years. The joint exploration, the sense that we learn together, and not by trying to pull each other apart, that we have to delineate the right forms of emerging church, or practices or beliefs. So for me Emergent, is post-protestant, and our involvement in the Emerging church must remain that way.
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Comment by timsamoff
2.14 pm on 31 Aug 2004
I think thatbthe things you are saying out loud are good and well-founded… I say “out loud,” because I feel like a number of us think along the same lines, but never come out with it — this makes for an air of superiority that — maybe — doesn’t have to be there. I think one of the things that turned me off about the whole emerging/pomo movement was this air; a sense that nothing that came before what was happening now was valid anymore. It wasn’t until digging a little deeper that I discovered that there was more to it (a mutual embrassing and letting go that is hard to explain). Thanks for sharing, Jase.
Comment by DanD
3.18 pm on 31 Aug 2004
Amen brother! From an old geezer: might not that superior attitude be just the hubris of youth? I’d really like to live to see who’s “relevant” when those 20 or 30 somethings reach 50 and 60.
Comment by Jason Clark
3.54 pm on 31 Aug 2004
I know Tim, the arrogance that can write off the whole of the modern evangelical church, let alone most of christendom as a huge mistake, is galling. The real revolution would be learn, and be as Brian suggests, pro-tesfying.
Comment by Jason Clark
4.00 pm on 31 Aug 2004
HI Dan, I regularly come across older people who have been big players in the modern church and who now right it off as failed. But I like you want to stay the course and see what really has taken shape in 20-30 years time. Deconstruction is vital but is no way to build anything.
Comment by brian
6.55 pm on 31 Aug 2004
Just had a conversation at lunch that touched on this issue – I don’t want to have an either or mentality when it comes to doing church – I also don’t want to be egocentric – God can use all kinds – but I do know where I am headed and I do know I have a lot to learn…can’t wait till I get Brian’s book in the mail…
Comment by Jason Clark
8.49 am on 1 Sep 2004
Hi Brian…boy we do have a lot to learn, and lot to be thankful for from the people who go before us doing church.
Comment by Sivin Kit
8.55 am on 1 Sep 2004
it’s interesting and this caught my attention when I watched the “Luther” movie especially the part when Philipp Melancthon had the Augsburg confession in his hands before the Emporer … There was a time when the princes needed to protest (and thus we’re called protestant), but deep down it was because they wanted to “confess” (which was more constructive I presume) the liberating message that was sparked off by Luther (is that Luther’s picture you posted up!?) now written out in the Lutheran confession. And the spirit in which it was done was more for “survival” (and how there’s so much vulnerability in the process) rather than “superiority” (i.e. a conquest mentality). Recently, I’ve been drawn to some “protesting” dimension in my journey, and while agreeing that we need to admit out flaws, learn from others and not throw all the babies with the bathwater … how may I still have some healthy self-correction mechanism in our Christianity?
Comment by Jason Clark
9.03 am on 1 Sep 2004
Hi Sivin, yes it is Luther :-)if you find some answers to that question then let us know.
Comment by Paul
9.28 am on 1 Sep 2004
Interesting histoclaren insights but I think such views as my brand of church better is something that has pretty much died amongst my 20-something contempories – I feel that maybe we are just:
*too steeped in commercial cynacism…
*too use to celebrating (or at least pro-tolerating)diversity…
* too much aware that no-one has got the full picture and to be suspicious about anyone who claims such…
When we talk about church it’s as a place where we can call home, feel comfortable and connect with God, each other and the community around us which is gonna be/mean/look like different for all of us – rather than what label is on the tin… That’s the beauty of now, the mix and match philosphy means that I explore, try on and am hungry to experiment with ideas and practices which help me meet those connecting desires regardless of their orginal orgin and context…
Comment by Sivin Kit
10.39 am on 1 Sep 2004
I think you’re love/hate emerging post did that “self-correction” bit somewhat :-) which is healthy. It’s delicate isn’t it?
Comment by Jason Clark
10.48 am on 1 Sep 2004
well I was criticising something I am part of, I hope that’s healthy :-)
Comment by Richard Sudworth
1.57 pm on 1 Sep 2004
I think there is something in being “protestent” that is worth holding on to throw something else in the ring. The original protestent movement,and let’s beware of stereotyping history, had huge elements that wanted to challenge the powers that be: be it empire, riches, priesthood etc. At the core of this is something inherently gospel-like and many movements have had this strain in them (including Catholic, celtic and Orthodox strains). The emerging church needs to retain authenticity by its settling alongside the powerless, the poor, the marginalised to walk in the good of this tradition. The danger is that it often doesn’t and sees its counter-culture blast against a church that is itself marginalised and powerless.
Comment by Jason Clark
2.48 pm on 1 Sep 2004
Hi Richard I hope you saw my early paragraph that said there was much that was good about the protestant reformation (and Brian McLaren certianly declares that). It’s what protestanism turned into that became ugly.
There is much about the church to protest, as you say, why doesn’t the gospel naturally lead to the poor and marginalised.
But when the protesting is about being, cool, in, with it, right and declaring everyone else as wrong…what is that worth?
Comment by marc
3.35 pm on 1 Sep 2004
I believe there is much we can learn from all corners the church.
I dislike the ‘I am right you are wrong’ camp, but this is to be found to one degree or another in all churches…however I cannot explore my faith in the confines of the protestant faith or any other and neither should we.
I now have regular discourse with members of both Orthodox and Catholic traditions, they have much to offer and I believe we have much to learn and vice versa.
I have never cared about being fashionable in my faith. Those who would claim that the emerging church is a fad clearly have no understanding of the need that is in our evangelical churches and why this ‘group’ has arisen from all corners of the globe.
I think Robert Webber put it well ‘The road to the future runs through the past’ – our past is still alive.
Comment by jen lemen
8.57 pm on 1 Sep 2004
jason, i think i get what you’re saying, but it’s interesting to me that now would be the time for this particular message (we can’t just deconstruct/let’s reconstruct/let’s stay connected & learning from our roots). what will happen if we continue to deconstruct? and in a serious focused way? is it that to go further will put some things at risk that we’re not willing to let go of? or is it that there doesn’t seem to be a point & we’re getting nervous that we won’t be spiritually formed after all with so much angst flying around?
what sivin says about protesting out of deeper need to confess and thus survive makes total sense to me and should not be too quickly glossed over. while deconstruction is a genx pasttime for some, it is the core of mental health for others–especially outsiders, women, people of color, etc. as long as some of our more favored traditions & systems (like patriarchy or other hierarchies that favor privilege) remain undiscussed and unchallenged, deconstruction–at least for some–will be an essential part of the journey. do we still have patience for this? or do you think we’re beyond this now?
Comment by Ryan Sharp
4.49 am on 2 Sep 2004
…i have had so many thoughts on this very thing upon finishing brian’s book… i see so much trash-talk about ‘moderns’ (and even i am involved in it… heavily) and i think its time to move on…
i remember brian’s ‘paradigm-shifting box’ from a new kind of christian where we critique that behind us in moving ahead, but we must eventually move ahead…
so many of us speak of a more beautiful way, and though i think it has to come about by being honest in where the church has been (whether through deconstruction or skepticism or whatever else), i think we cannot stop there… we must move to a more beautiful place, living lives more in the way of christ…
i have some similar thoughts about this is multiple facets on my blog…
Comment by Jason Clark
9.58 am on 2 Sep 2004
Hi Jen, I’m not suggesting for one minute that we think critically about such vital issues. What I was saying is how lapse into exclusion, cynicism, resentment etc (as listed above), which is something very different.
Comment by Jason Clark
10.00 am on 2 Sep 2004
thank Ryan, and for the link
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