what happens when the talking is all over?
19 Mar 2004
What happens when the talking is all over. When the church accepts the idea that culture has changed, that we are in a postmodern, and emerging context? When we have explained the transition from modernity to post-modernity, to as many people as we can, and that church needs to change.
Won’t the church do everything it can by using media shout, candles, blogs, VJ’s, liturgy, narrative preaching, etc…but it won’t rethink the fundamental message that it has about what the Gospel is, and won’t be missional by doing mission. We did Gen x to death, and now we are in danger of doing Emerging church to death.
Where are the gatherings of people, not telling us about the need to change, but who have changed, who can tell stories of how new communities have grown, with new disciples and followers of christ? Or is it too early for that?
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Comment by JJ
8.51 am on 19 Mar 2004
They are out there, and I think they have always been there, and we are just waking up to it. Example wise, I might cite two who inspire me: Dave Andrews and the Waiters Union in Brisbane, and the Bruderhof.
Comment by Jason Clark
9.02 am on 19 Mar 2004
keep em coming..
Comment by Dan Hughes
12.43 pm on 19 Mar 2004
jason,
you are unlikely to see them as the majority do not have any of the signs of organizational life that we have come to associate with institutionalized common cause. many exist in a shadow culture; a loosely joined patchwork of people in local geographies. answering your question would mean giving you names of families and friends and colleagues with unique configurations of overlapping connection to their neighborhoods, friends and cities.
i too tire of the banter re: the need to change. i think that many people and communities already have and are no longer contributing to “the conversation” (whatever that is), because the conversation is simply repeating the same questions year in and year out. i agree with you regarding the GenX/Emergent-thing being programmed and promoted to death as if they were some kind of demographically sensitive advertising campaign. i think that your final question, though, may sill be asking for something that is lived out along organizational vectors. there many not be many great examples of this within such parameters.
Cheers,
dan
http://theyblinked.com/articles/amagnacarta.html
Comment by Jonathan Green
1.46 pm on 19 Mar 2004
Hi Jason,
I think that the ‘rethinking the fundamental message’ is a really fruitful (and essential) avenue for converation that needs to be explored more fully.
I hear the phrase ‘we need to rethink the fundamental message’ being batted around a lot! However, a lot of the conversation frustrates me – we too readily speak in generalisations, and this becomes tiresome after a while. It is also an easy route to take!!!
At London Bible College, the essays that scored high (and the most rewarding essays) were the ones when we took the time to press beyond the general, and dig deep into the specific and the detail – this is really hard work – but hard work pays off :-) I think that the really big advances will come as we engage at the deeper level.
Let the ‘emergent conversation’ be known for its depth of thinking exemplified by people who do the hard graft of engaging with the detail instead of espousing vague, badly thought through statements – there is far too much of this kind of talk around and this just adds to the frustration after a while.
I think that the ‘message’ is where we need to focus first – style is a secondary issue that unfortunately, too often gets blown out of all proportion.
I believe that rethinking the message will naturally produce new forms that will naturally lead to new creativity etc. etc.
Jon
Comment by rachelle
3.56 pm on 19 Mar 2004
I think there are practicing communities already out there: ThPM, Abbi and Benji Roades at On the House in Seattle, the Daily Grind in Portland, The Bridge (also in Portland), The Brownhouse in Cincinatti, and many more. Many of these missional/incarnational worshipping communities wouldn’t self describe as emergent, but in matter-of-practice, I think they are. You don’t hear their voice though because they are small,not flashy and unassuming. I get inspired by these folks, and coached as well.
Rachelle
Comment by Mike
4.06 pm on 19 Mar 2004
I think they are out there too, and others have already cited examples.
Where are the gatherings of people, not telling us about the need to change, but who have changed, who can tell stories of how new communities have grown, with new disciples and followers of christ?
Based on recent experience, I’d say the thing is (I almost said “the problem is”, but changed my mind)when you “gather” people to talk about it, those who are doing it are outnumbered by those who are thinking about it, those who would like to do it, those who are worried about those doing it, those who think its cool to talk about doing it, and those who have no intention of doing it but want to hang out with the rest.
I’m not sure you can prevent that. I think the key is individual relationships. They’re more work to find and cultivate than a web site, a conference and a mailing list, but well worth it.
Peace.
Comment by dan
4.29 pm on 19 Mar 2004
>when you “gather” people to talk
>about it, those who are doing it
>are outnumbered by those who are
>thinking about it, those who would
>like to do it, those who are
>worried about those doing it
good point, Mike.
Trackback by Waving or Drowning?
9.35 pm on 19 Mar 2004
car wreck
I just finished chatting with Cleave, and in the course of our conversation I told him I was going “anti-movement”.
Comment by pastor draven
7.02 am on 20 Mar 2004
It seems that more and more are becomming tired of all the talking and complaining, and actually now becoming instead of bantering.
This is exciting.
Comment by maggi
8.02 am on 20 Mar 2004
there are also communities that are just ‘getting on with it’ that don’t even get noticed because they are still within the traditional denominations. They don’t look different (or cool) on the surface, but they’re more interested in theology, people and social justice than in talking about changing the shape of the church. They inspire me most of all.
Comment by dave the rave
11.30 am on 20 Mar 2004
Jason, they are out there alright, they are busy telling their stories – in fact maybe they are to busy to tell others about their stories they are telling in their community. People such as Dave Andrews do, however, try to make time to tell others about their story – normally to the kind of people as described by Mike.
So the question is not “where are the gatherings” (because they are everywhere) but “when are those gathered going to get into action as a result of being challenged by what they have heard?”
Maybe they are too busy waiting until the talking is all over….
Comment by brooke mullins
6.32 pm on 21 Mar 2004
i have felt those feelings, thought those thoughts – even being a part of a community far surpasses my knowledge and understanding of what community is. i find hope in these communities, my community, but cannot help but wonder, will this transition succeed beyond us? i can guarantee that half of my community doesn’t even understand what we as a church believe. not because it is not taught, but because it is not heard. may we seek more understanding. may we find more change. this i hope.
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