Jason Clark

Thanks to Sivin for mailing me this. You can read the ministry.com interview with Brian online or the text in the extended section below.

FROM: http://www.forministry.com/
An Interview with Brian McLaren
DJ Chuang
Jan-28-2004

Brian McLaren is the founding pastor of Cedar Ridge Community Church (http://www.crcc.org/) in the Washington, D.C. area. He is a leading Christian thinker on our emerging culture and its implications for the emerging church. In addition to being a frequent conference speaker, Brian is the author of The Story We Find Ourselves In (Jossey-Bass, 2003), The Church on the Other Side (Zondervan, 2000), A New Kind of Christian (Jossey-Bass, 2001), and Finding Faith (Zondervan, 1999), among other works.

DJ: Would you share with us a brief history of your pastoral experience and how you became a voice for the emerging church?

BM: I was brought up in a conservative, fundamentalist Christian context. Wonderful people, and a wonderful background, with deep, deep roots in Scripture. I always believed but I became a committed follower of Jesus during the Jesus Movement in the early ‘70s. One of the main drug dealers at my school found the Lord, and he started a Bible study that I played guitar for. Then he went back into drugs, which constituted my first call to leadership!

This group morphed into a kind of “hippie” church in the late ‘70s, so I actually planted my first church at 19, which I don’t recommend if you can possibly help it (which we couldn’t). The church fell apart after a few years, and I said, “I’ll never do that again.”

But in 1982, it started happening again. I had gotten married, and Grace and I started a fellowship group in our apartment that soon grew into a little house church. I had just finished graduate school and was teaching at University of Maryland and other colleges in the area. I left teaching in 1986 and have been pastoring ever since.

In the early ‘90s, it became clear that the unchurched people walking into our church were not the same species as the people already there. Being oriented toward evangelism, I cared about this. I found a resonance between their thinking and the thinking I had been exposed to in graduate school, then called “deconstruction” and now called “postmodern thought.”

I felt that many of these seekers had questions that were better than my answers, and this launched me on a quest of my own. I spent a few years in the mid-’90s not sure I’d stay in the ministry.

But eventually I began to see some light at the end of the long dark tunnel. The only book I was aware of on the subject was Walsh and Middleton’s Truth is Stranger Than It Used to Be, which I still think is one of the very best books on this subject. At any rate, I started writing in the midst of my confusion, and as a result, found others groping along in the same tunnel.

DJ: Churches have a reputation for being status quo, preserving traditions and resisting change. Are you finding churches that are able to adjust to the new emerging culture, or do you see more new church plants getting started to engage the new culture?

BM: It’s hard either way. Really hard. Existing churches sometimes have so much baggage, especially the ones that are most successful now (because they sometimes have pride along with the baggage). But new churches don’t have a Sunday School picnic either. For one thing, disgruntled members of existing churches want to join, and they bring along the baggage from their old churches — or a reactionary attitude.

Having said that, I am for both — the reinvention or refounding of some (not all) traditional churches, and the planting of new ones. I say “not all” regarding traditional churches, because I think that some churches can’t change, most don’t want to, and many shouldn’t because they’re doing such important work as they are.

DJ: Over the course of pastoring your church (Cedar Ridge Community Church), you’ve “reinvented” it several times. I imagine those were some challenging experiences, to see some people grow with the changes, and some people leave who couldn’t or wouldn’t. Would you suggest a couple of good questions that a church should ask itself to decide whether to reinvent, to plant new churches, to start new services, or to stay the same?

BM: I think a church should begin by looking at its trends, its numbers, like going to the doctor and getting your weight, blood pressure, and pulse measured. Is the church growing, static, or declining in size, growing younger or older in average age, increasing or decreasing in giving, that sort of thing. Then I think the church should continue by looking at its intangibles. Is it more happy or unhappy, united or divided, active or passive, creative or less so, outward or inward focused.

If all the indicators are positive, the church might be wiser to keep doing what it’s doing and instead donate some money and other resources to others who can plant new and different churches. Wherever there’s life and momentum, I think they should be treated with great respect.

If the indicators are not so positive, then the church should ask whether it would be wiser to add or replace. Reinvention is replacing what is with what could be. Adding means keeping what you have, but adding new options — new services, new sub-congregations, new outreaches, etc. In general, I think it’s safer to add when you can. people don’t like subtracting things they value and love!

DJ: Your book A New Kind of Christian has received a wide range of responses and reactions from Christian leaders. Why all the buzz?

BM: I think the book struck a nerve for a couple reasons. First, I think it took some ideas that have been under consideration for a long time, but had been phrased in technical or academic language, and translated them so that normal people could engage in conversation about them.

Second, the fact that it was in a pseudo-fictional form made it more engaging too. As well, the “dialogical essay” form made the book more down-to-earth and connected to real life. These things made it more helpful for some, and more threatening for others. Of course, I’m sure I’m wrong about a lot of things too, and some people focused on that, and negative things seem to attract attention these days.
 
DJ: What are people saying about the book? How are they responding?

BM: What I hear most often is something like this: “Thanks for writing your book. You put into words what I have been feeling and couldn’t articulate,” or “I thought I was the only crazy one. Now I know there are at least two of us.” The response has been far beyond what I expected or hoped. It’s very moving, and humbling, to feel that God has used this small effort!

DJ: So this new kind of Christianity isn’t just a middle-class, Anglo, male thing?

BM: I think Asian-Americans understand many of the emerging culture issues better than Anglos, because they live a multicultural life every day, and they develop the ability to see two cultures — their culture of origin and their culture of adoption, from both the inside and outside.

That kind of experience reduces the “imperialism” of any one culture, and pushes people along in a journey where easy black-and-white answers are less and less satisfying.

Among many African Americans, I think it’s more complex, because the church occupies a different place for them than it does for white folks — plus, they never were as bought in to modernity in the first place as white, middle-class anglo Christians.

There are similarities here with Latino Christians as well. But I think the farther along we go, the more prevalent various types of postmodern thought will become among all demographics where higher education is valued.

DJ: What might be the implication of being a new kind of Christian for pastors? For seminaries? For church life? For evangelism? For discipleship? For worship?

BM: Here’s an analogy that helps me. What if we went back, say, 400 years, or even 350 years. Let’s say that all the churches around us required us to sign a statement affirming that we believe the sun and planets and stars revolve around the earth every 24 hours. This was the litmus test of biblical fidelity. If we didn’t sign this statement, we couldn’t be considered Christians. Would we sign?

Or say we went back 150 or 170 years, and all the churches required us to sign a statement affirming that we believe whites are superior to blacks. If we didn’t sign, we couldn’t belong, or even attend. Would we sign?

We might say, “Of course not,” but for the average non-church-going person today — who, by the way, believes in God and may be a better person in many ways than most of us in the church — we have unwritten (or written!) requirements that seem just as backward or wrong. If people have no idea what I’m talking about, rather than asking me, they might ask a friend, relative, neighbor, or colleague who avoids church.

There’s so much more I could say on this, but really, that’s what the book explores.

DJ: Do you think technology is contributing to the cultural changes, and is it helping to form of a new kind of Christian?

BM: Technology is both important and trivial. It’s important because, for example, the technology of printing increased literacy and formed modern Christianity profoundly. Many of us can’t imagine coming to church without a Bible, or hearing the pastor’s first sentence, “Please open your Bibles to….”

Now, with digital technology, I think that most Christians in the future will encounter Scripture through a screen, not a page, and they will very likely not have or read a book-style Bible.

What would post-book-literate discipleship look like? I think it will move much more toward memorization and meditation, for starters, and to practices like lectio divina which depend on listening and imagination instead of reading, or Ignation exercises which depend on imagination more than reading.

DJ: ForMinistry provides digital technology to a diverse, ecumenical network of Christians and churches. What might we learn from different Christian traditions? How can we foster more dialogue and peer-to-peer learning?

BM: Let me offer three examples.

1. Most modern Western Christians don’t realize how influenced we are by Enlightenment thought — Descartes especially. For us, Christianity begins in the head, with right beliefs or doctrines or principles. Then, if we’re lucky (and hang around some charismatics) it gets into our hearts, our emotions. Then, on too rare occasions, our faith makes it into our daily lives, into how we treat not just family but neighbors, coworkers, strangers, plus “the last, the lost, and the least.” Far more rarely, our faith informs our understanding of social and global issues like poverty or ecology or war.

Many of us have become fascinated with Celtic Christianity, the faith of the Irish of the 4th through 8th centuries, because it’s clear this wasn’t their way. For them, faith was encoded less in concepts and more in relationships, daily rituals, communal practices, mission, art and crafts, that sort of thing. The Celts offer us modern Western Christians a premodern, non-Western (meaning less influenced by Greco-Roman thought) approach to Christian faith and life.

2. There’s a lot of rethinking going on these days about what salvation and the gospel really are. For many of us, the gospel has become a four-step process for assuring that our soul will get to heaven after we die. Everything is focused on the individual (me), the nonphysical (my soul), and beyond-historical (heaven after I die).

Something about this feels less full than the gospel of Jesus. So we find more and more Protestant Christians becoming fascinated with certain facets of Eastern Orthodoxy. They have a different understanding of the flow of the biblical story, one that is much more affirming of the goodness of Creation and the ubiquity of the Holy Spirit, less preoccupied with concepts like “original sin” or “total depravity,” and more focused on salvation as new creation. There’s less exclusive focus on Jesus as my personal Savior from hell, and more focus on Jesus as our Savior, the Savior of the world.

Of course, we Protestants shouldn’t be surprised by this looking East — John Calvin and John Wesley were both intrigued with Eastern Orthodoxy, and felt that there were riches there that need to be re-explored.

3. A third example would be more practical, relating to worship and spirituality. We modern Protestants, whether liberal or conservative, can seem to think of only one thing to do with the Bible — analyze it, study it. Many of us are looking for other things to do with the Bible other than analyze it in sermons and studies.

So, we’re looking to the Benedictines, Ignatians, and others to learn ways of contemplating Scripture through practices like lectio divina, examen, and imaginative readings. We’re finding the value in ritual and symbol, which involve the body and imagination, not just the rational powers of analysis — and we’re being helped by brothers and sisters from other traditions.

Anyway, technology is important. I’m not one of those who disparages the quality of online relationships. I think that some people connect in profound ways online, deeper in some ways than in person. I’m all for experimenting with online churches, or online small groups, or online seminaries (linked with local churches, of course). So technology is really important!

But underneath, human beings are human beings. We still need love. Solitude. Meaning. Purpose. Help. Hope. God! Technology can serve, but not substitute for these things.

DJ: Perhaps that’s what you’re exploring in your books, that we need more than rational propositions to live our our Christian faith, that there’s more organic and dynamic ingredients to being fully human and to do good for the world.

BM: Exactly. Somehow, the tail started wagging the dog for us, I fear. Our legitimate concern for heaven after we die somehow made us stop caring for God’s world, God’s story in history. It’s as if we decided the Titanic is sinking, so let it sink. That’s one way to read the Bible, but if God’s plan is not to discard this Creation but rather to redeem it, our abandonment could be a serious breach of faith with God’s desires.

DJ: You’ve been active with the formation (or founding?) of something called the Emergent Village. Would you talk about how that came about, and what it’s set out to do? How can others participate?

BM: Well, the best way to understand Emergent is as a friendship. We believe that if we can stimulate fresh thinking and conversation among friends, depending on Christ, that new possibilities will emerge.

Nobody feels that he or she or we have “the answer” or “the model” for ministry in the emerging culture. Far from it. We just believe that through seeking together in conversation, God will guide us together and new ideas and values — including rediscovered ancient ideas and values that we need — will be generated.

Emergent puts on some events and tries to support and encourage events that others put on, plus we have an online presence at www.emergentvillage.com. The website is also important to help us link up internationally, because as I said before, we believe that the way ahead is together, across cultures, not just a bunch of white guys who think they know everything.

D. J. Chuang is a postmodern, multiethnic, Asian American who enjoys
thinking and discussing life issues. He was born in Taiwan and came to the United States at age 8. He is a graduate from Virginia Tech (B.S. Computer Engineering) and Dallas Theological Seminary (Th.M.). He served in pastoral ministry for five years, and now he is multi-tasking as a web developer with the American Bible Society and as the executive director of L2 Foundation [“L-Squared”], which seeks to develop leadership and legacy for Asian Americans.

He is married to his wife Rachelle, a